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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 119, Issue 28

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  • From: "Frances and David" <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 119, Issue 28
  • Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 07:15:42 -0800

nice to hear!
(it's been a great awakening learning this -- just goes to show we never know which 'truths' we are letting slip by... in a constant de-programming process that many of us embrace)
and, is there anywhere else you find this type of fruit other than growing it yourself or knowing someone who does?
I wonder how we would revise the size of land to feed one or two or three people, given this information.
Fruit does indeed have a special energy and provides abundantly while taking so little from us.
In fact, where we live, in the Pacific North West, with the rainy season for our winter, the cider press owner's assistant has told us that they neither mulch nor fertilize for apples...
Worms can be a problem. I have forgotten what was said about adding compost -- not sure why not -- something about the roots? But, I remember distinctly that she said that they do not do this, purposefully. They also grow many wonderful vegetables in the raised beds on their property, to which they do add compost and mulch...
Fran

-----Original Message----- From: Daniel Jager
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 6:26 AM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 119, Issue 28

Just for the record. I totally concur with Douglas. I found this on my own, having only briefly corresponded with him for the first time just a few months ago.

My experience with growing seedlings is:

- the fear of getting inferior or too diverse a fruit is highly overrated (for some trees at least, like guavas, starfruit, canistel, and others)
- growth-rate of seedling trees is far superior than grafts
- seedling trees have far less diseases, even in poor and unamended soils
- grafted trees died much quicker in the 2011 Thailand floods than seedling trees of the same species. And the rot started to grow... where the original scion-to-rootstock join was located. This was especially clear in the mango trees.
- the vigor that a fruit imparts to us humans lies more in the virility of its seed, than in the nutrition of its juices. It is an energetic principle that dominates here. Sterile or cloned fruits are an abomination that will destroy our own virility. What you do to others (including your trees) you do to yourself. No "proof" of this one. Like Douglas said... eat it long enough and you will start to experience the difference. And yes, that is an invitation.

Daniel
Rangsit, Thailand


From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] fruit trees
To: Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>,
permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <50D8FCE4.9000609@gmx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 12/23/2012 11:33 AM, Frances and David wrote:
> I like the idea of a variety of trees having a
variety of yields.
> The person in question works with fruit that he is not
responsible for
> growing, but tends the trees.
> Different strokes for different folks, I guess. He has
enjoyed his own
> ?intimate relations? with trees.
> He describes his method of growing as ?passive
organic?.

That suggests he leaves out the soil improvement and doesn't
do pest
control.

> Some of the trees that he works with are from a more or
less heritage
> orchard.

> Varieties that one can only eat ?in person? because the
mass marketing
> system has knocked them off of the shelves of many
stores... But that
> is another story!

Homogeneity = Mediocrity! Viva Diversity!

> Very interesting thoughts on seedling trees! I like!

Clone People, not Trees!

> The whole notion of just tossing the seeds (or
sprouting for eating ?
> but that?s another story, again)... doesn?t ?feel?
right.

But some of those here profit from it.

> I like the idea of experimentation.

Kinda like our parents did, when they made us.

> The idea is always put across that we ?have? to buy
root stock...

As I said, some of here profit from it.

> Hmmm... Guess what we need is enough space to grow
these experiments??

We need Agrarian Reform Laws and failing that (or in
addition to it),
Agricultural Land Trusts.

> How else would we know? Is there any other way other
than waiting for
> fruit?

Yes. The two ways I'm aware of are Marker Assisted
Breeding (but you
need to know which gene sequences are associated with which
traits), and
splicing graft wood or a bud from the tree in question onto
into foreign
rootstock (composite trees do bear earlier - I think they're
either
confused or scared to death)

> Do we need to work with a whole tree in order to find
out what the
> edibility factor of its fruit will be?

Well Frances, you get an idea of what the fruit's
characteristics are
but I can assure you that the fruit of a scion (not on it's
own roots)
is not going to have the same effect as that of an original
whole tree
(which is why I quit eating fruit from grafted trees over 40
years ago)
and will invariably include negative effects that are very
pronounced
yet not easy to explain at the moment. All I can say
for now is I have
no doubt and am very glad i made the choice I did. Grafted
trees embody
an inferior and convoluted reality I don't need and want no
part of.

I don't know where else you're going to hear that from
anyone but does
that really matter? It works for me and it will for anyone
else that
chose to take that path - the life giving path. (Commercial
motives are
another ball of wax. But then, DDT used to be a good
profit maker,
before Rachel Carson).

Sure some individuals (or seedling strains) are going to be
better for
some climates, soil types and tastes than others, but that's
part of the
job - and it's our job, as people, to deal with it and sort
it out.

D


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