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  • From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
  • To: Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>, permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] fruit trees
  • Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 19:09:56 -0600

On 12/23/2012 11:33 AM, Frances and David wrote:
I like the idea of a variety of trees having a variety of yields.
The person in question works with fruit that he is not responsible for growing, but tends the trees.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. He has enjoyed his own ‘intimate relations’ with trees.
He describes his method of growing as ‘passive organic’.

That suggests he leaves out the soil improvement and doesn't do pest control.

Some of the trees that he works with are from a more or less heritage orchard.

Varieties that one can only eat ‘in person’ because the mass marketing system has knocked them off of the shelves of many stores... But that is another story!

Homogeneity = Mediocrity! Viva Diversity!

Very interesting thoughts on seedling trees! I like!

Clone People, not Trees!

The whole notion of just tossing the seeds (or sprouting for eating – but that’s another story, again)... doesn’t ‘feel’ right.

But some of those here profit from it.

I like the idea of experimentation.

Kinda like our parents did, when they made us.

The idea is always put across that we ‘have’ to buy root stock...

As I said, some of here profit from it.

Hmmm... Guess what we need is enough space to grow these experiments??

We need Agrarian Reform Laws and failing that (or in addition to it), Agricultural Land Trusts.

How else would we know? Is there any other way other than waiting for fruit?

Yes. The two ways I'm aware of are Marker Assisted Breeding (but you need to know which gene sequences are associated with which traits), and splicing graft wood or a bud from the tree in question onto into foreign rootstock (composite trees do bear earlier - I think they're either confused or scared to death)

Do we need to work with a whole tree in order to find out what the edibility factor of its fruit will be?

Well Frances, you get an idea of what the fruit's characteristics are but I can assure you that the fruit of a scion (not on it's own roots) is not going to have the same effect as that of an original whole tree (which is why I quit eating fruit from grafted trees over 40 years ago) and will invariably include negative effects that are very pronounced yet not easy to explain at the moment. All I can say for now is I have no doubt and am very glad i made the choice I did. Grafted trees embody an inferior and convoluted reality I don't need and want no part of.

I don't know where else you're going to hear that from anyone but does that really matter? It works for me and it will for anyone else that chose to take that path - the life giving path. (Commercial motives are another ball of wax. But then, DDT used to be a good profit maker, before Rachel Carson).

Sure some individuals (or seedling strains) are going to be better for some climates, soil types and tastes than others, but that's part of the job - and it's our job, as people, to deal with it and sort it out.

D

*From:* Douglas Hinds <mailto:cedecor@gmx.net>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2012 9:17 AM
*To:* permaculture <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
*Cc:* Frances and David <mailto:fdnokes@hotmail.com>
*Subject:* Re: [permaculture] fruit trees
On 12/23/2012 8:33 AM, Frances wrote:
Sea buckthorn not only produces a highly nutritious fruit (which requires
processing and gloves to harvest), but it is, reputedly, a most adaptable
plant to earth conditions, and has natural protection from other creatures
that might want to harvest the fruit. And, it is a nitrogen fixer!
Many excellent tropical fruit bearing trees are also legumes.

... an apple and pear specialist ... explained what the off/on nature of
apple harvests was about – this, no doubt, applies to other fruit trees as
well...
Yes but - from my experiences (primarily with subtropical fruit, i.e. avocados), some varieties are prone to this behavior (heavy crops one year but light crops the next) while others are not. Furthermore, while thinning may be good anyway (to obtain larger fruit), there are other alternatives, such as growing a variety that produces it's heaviest crop during the off years. That way you'll have plenty of fruit all the time, to eat and sell.

In any case, these are genetically based traits, so how hard can it be to develop a cross that tends to produce every year? After all, _somebody_ had to develop or reproduce the varieties already in use.

People often refer to the phen. of an ‘on’ year and ‘off’ year for apple
harvest. What Bill explained was that, the trick is to thin the apples when
they are the size of ping pong balls, making selections among closely located
specimens... Otherwise, the tree has such a huge hormonal output that it has
little energy for the buds it is also preparing for the next year. The trick
is to even out its hormonal workload with a result of a more consistent
year-to-year yield. Otherwise, what happens is that the buds are few for the
following year on the year of a huge apple outlay, and then, in the year with
less apples, the buds for the following year are proportionately higher in
number... Very interesting to learn about the life cycle of the apple tree,
we thought, and to understand more about its productivity cycles.

Once again - I seriously doubt that the phenomena you refer to is an innate characteristic of apple trees per se. I would expect that trait to be present in _some_ apple varieties but not all. And remember, those of you who think seedling apples are inherently bad are rejecting the means of resolving this issue. IOW: If the quality of most seedling apples is less than ideal, all it means is that we human animals still have more work to do, since that is exactly where all new varieties come from: Chance (or intentionally crossed) Seedlings that are then reproduced by whatever means, and if the means isn't planting seed, the genetically instability will continue to remain. So plant the seeds, see what you'll get and then plant again. :-)

DH

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