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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 119, Issue 28

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  • From: Daniel Jager <dfjager@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 119, Issue 28
  • Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 06:26:56 -0800 (PST)

Just for the record. I totally concur with Douglas. I found this on my own,
having only briefly corresponded with him for the first time just a few
months ago.

My experience with growing seedlings is:

- the fear of getting inferior or too diverse a fruit is highly overrated
(for some trees at least, like guavas, starfruit, canistel, and others)
- growth-rate of seedling trees is far superior than grafts
- seedling trees have far less diseases, even in poor and unamended soils
- grafted trees died much quicker in the 2011 Thailand floods than seedling
trees of the same species. And the rot started to grow... where the original
scion-to-rootstock join was located. This was especially clear in the mango
trees.
- the vigor that a fruit imparts to us humans lies more in the virility of
its seed, than in the nutrition of its juices. It is an energetic principle
that dominates here. Sterile or cloned fruits are an abomination that will
destroy our own virility. What you do to others (including your trees) you do
to yourself. No "proof" of this one. Like Douglas said... eat it long enough
and you will start to experience the difference. And yes, that is an
invitation.

Daniel
Rangsit, Thailand


> From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] fruit trees
> To: Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>,
>     permaculture
>     <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <50D8FCE4.9000609@gmx.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 12/23/2012 11:33 AM, Frances and David wrote:
> > I like the  idea of a variety of trees having a
> variety of yields.
> > The person in question works with fruit that he is not
> responsible for
> > growing, but tends the trees.
> > Different strokes for different folks, I guess. He has
> enjoyed his own
> > ?intimate relations? with trees.
> > He describes his method of growing as ?passive
> organic?.
>
> That suggests he leaves out the soil improvement and doesn't
> do pest
> control.
>
> > Some of the trees that he works with are from a more or
> less heritage
> > orchard.
>
> > Varieties that one can only eat ?in person? because the
> mass marketing
> > system has knocked them off of the shelves of many
> stores... But that
> > is another story!
>
> Homogeneity = Mediocrity!  Viva Diversity!
>
> > Very interesting thoughts on seedling trees! I like!
>
> Clone People, not Trees!
>
> > The whole notion of just tossing the seeds (or
> sprouting for eating ?
> > but that?s another story, again)... doesn?t ?feel?
> right.
>
> But some of those here profit from it.
>
> > I like the idea of experimentation.
>
> Kinda like our parents did, when they made us.
>
> > The idea is always put across that we ?have? to buy
> root stock...
>
> As I said, some of here profit from it.
>
> > Hmmm... Guess what we need is enough space to grow
> these experiments??
>
> We need Agrarian Reform Laws and failing that (or in
> addition to it),
> Agricultural Land Trusts.
>
> > How else would we know? Is there any other way other
> than waiting for
> > fruit?
>
> Yes.  The two ways I'm aware of are Marker Assisted
> Breeding (but you
> need to know which gene sequences are associated with which
> traits), and
> splicing graft wood or a bud from the tree in question onto
> into foreign
> rootstock (composite trees do bear earlier - I think they're
> either
> confused or scared to death)
>
> > Do we need to work with a whole tree in order to find
> out what the
> > edibility factor of its fruit will be?
>
> Well Frances, you get an idea of what the fruit's
> characteristics are
> but I can assure you that the fruit of a scion (not on it's
> own roots)
> is not going to have the same effect as that of an original
> whole tree
> (which is why I quit eating fruit from grafted trees over 40
> years ago)
> and will invariably include negative effects that are very
> pronounced
> yet not easy to explain at the moment.  All I can say
> for now is I have
> no doubt and am very glad i made the choice I did. Grafted
> trees embody
> an inferior and convoluted reality I don't need and want no
> part of.
>
> I don't know where else you're going to hear that from
> anyone but does
> that really matter? It works for me and it will for anyone
> else that
> chose to take that path - the life giving path. (Commercial
> motives are
> another ball of wax.  But then, DDT used to be a good
> profit maker,
> before Rachel Carson).
>
> Sure some individuals (or seedling strains) are going to be
> better for
> some climates, soil types and tastes than others, but that's
> part of the
> job - and it's our job, as people, to deal with it and sort
> it out.
>
> D
>





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