permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I've never bought from them but there are these guys. Heirlooms that are 
proven in our area are always nice. 
http://floridaheirloomseeds.com/

Southern Exposure has heirlooms that do well all over but do have southern 
heirlooms too. And if you google Florida and heirloom seeds you find more 
local sellers. 

K


________________________________
 From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Cc: marketfarming <marketfarming@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Heirloom Seed Sources
 

When I first farmed organically in 1968,

Nichols Garden Nursery in Albany, Oregon 
<https://www.nicholsgardennursery.com/store/>

https://www.nicholsgardennursery.com/store/

was about as good as they come for heirloom varieties and they may well 
still be.

D

On 12/21/2012 8:55 AM, Lawrence London wrote:
> Baker Greek Heirloom Seeds: www.rareseeds.com
> Bountiful Gardens: www.bountifulgardens.org
> Heirloom Seeds: www.heirloomseeds.com
> Heirloom Tomatoes: www.heirloomtomatoes.net
> Heritage Harvest Seed: www.heritageharvestseed.com
> Johnny’s Selected Seeds: www.johnnyseeds.com
> Kusa Seed Society: www.ancientcerealgrains.org
> Landreth Seed Company: www.landrethseeds.com
> Living Seed Company: www.livingseedcompany.com
> Native Seeds/SEARCH: www.nativeseeds.org
> Salt Spring Seeds:
> www.saltspringseeds.com<http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.saltspringseeds.com&h=yAQG4CTI2&s=1>(Note:
> this company cannot ship to the United States)
> seed savers exchange left out in honor of the work done by Kent Whealey who
> created SSE, stolen from him by greedy monsanto-like
> surrogates<http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seedsavers.org&h=eAQGBbCdW&s=1>
> Solana Seeds: solanaseeds.netfirms.com
> Southern Exposure Seed Exchange: www.southernexposure.com
> Sustainable Seed Company: www.sustainableseedco.com
> Territorial Seed:
> www.territorialseed.com<http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.territorialseed.com&h=NAQFfG4tA&s=1>
> Victory Seed Company:
> www.victoryseeds.com<http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.victoryseeds.com&h=SAQGAH9Pp&s=1>
>

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Subject: [permaculture] fruit trees
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Sea buckthorn not only produces a highly nutritious fruit (which requires 
processing and gloves to harvest), but it is, reputedly, a most adaptable 
plant to earth conditions, and has natural protection from other creatures 
that might want to harvest the fruit. And, it is a nitrogen fixer!
***
We were chatting with an apple and pear specialist who has run a traditional 
cider press for decades. (He is selling off his equipment, btw... complete 
with support and consultation to the new owner)
He explained what the off/on nature of apple harvests was about – this, no 
doubt, applies to other fruit trees as well...
People often refer to the phen. of an ‘on’ year and ‘off’ year for apple 
harvest.  What Bill explained was that, the trick is to thin the apples when 
they are the size of ping pong balls, making selections among closely located 
specimens... Otherwise, the tree has such a huge hormonal output that it has 
little energy for the buds it is also preparing for the next year. The trick 
is to even out its hormonal workload with a result of a more consistent 
year-to-year yield. Otherwise, what happens is that the buds are few for the 
following year on the year of a huge apple outlay, and then, in the year with 
less apples, the buds for the following year are proportionately higher in 
number... Very interesting to learn about the life cycle of the apple tree, 
we thought, and to understand more about its productivity cycles.
I guess the expression might be ‘pinch back’? Not sure... Not even sure that 
I’m using  quite the right terminology when it comes to the sending out of 
buds for the following years. I’ll check with Dave. He likely remembers 
more...

Fran
>From g.parlow@gmx.at  Sun Dec 23 11:15:31 2012
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Heirloom Seed Sources
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>> I'm not trying to trash Johnny's in entirety, as they at least
>> still have a
>> research farm, but their major emphasis on hybrids takes a lot of
>> control
>> out of the farmers hands, and subsequently shifts production to
>> China. Most
>
> From now on I will grow no hybrids at all; only open pollinated, from
> here on out, starting this winter.
> ...
> ...
> No more hybrid crop seeds for me. Never again.

To my understanding this does not need to be so. Why not stabilize the
best hybrids? Especially if you can obtain a detailed description of
the variety (including description of the early stages - here in
Europe this is available with every registered variety), it should be
fairly easy to grow them out, cull all plants that do not come true to
description (and to your own experience of the plant, since it makes
most sense to do this with a variety you have been previsouly growing
for several years), and intercross those that do come true. Within a
few years (7 or 8 at the most) you shoud arrive at a fairly stable
variety. Of course it always needs monitoring to keep the odd outcross
from propagating itself back into your seedstock, but this is standard
seed savers practice anyways.

Depending on the kind of multiple cross your variety sports, you might
need many or many many individuals in order to end up after culling
with sufficient amounts of your desired new variety, when growing out
your F2. Details of this, as well as lots of inspiring information and
lore you can find in Carol Deppe's "Breed your own vegetable
varieties" ISBN9781890132729


Merry christmas!
Georg
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On 12/23/2012 8:33 AM, Frances wrote:
> Sea buckthorn not only produces a highly nutritious fruit (which requires 
> processing and gloves to harvest), but it is, reputedly, a most adaptable 
> plant to earth conditions, and has natural protection from other creatures 
> that might want to harvest the fruit. And, it is a nitrogen fixer!
Many excellent tropical fruit bearing trees are also legumes.

> ... an apple and pear specialist ... explained what the off/on nature of 
> apple harvests was about – this, no doubt, applies to other fruit trees as 
> well...
Yes but - from my experiences (primarily with subtropical fruit, i.e.
avocados), some varieties are prone to this behavior (heavy crops one
year but light crops the next) while others are not. Furthermore, while
thinning may be good anyway (to obtain larger fruit), there are other
alternatives, such as growing a variety that produces it's heaviest crop
during the off years.  That way you'll have plenty of fruit all the
time, to eat and sell.

In any case, these are genetically based traits, so how hard can it be
to develop a cross that tends to produce every year?  After all,
_somebody_ had to develop or reproduce the varieties already in use.

> People often refer to the phen. of an ‘on’ year and ‘off’ year for apple 
> harvest.  What Bill explained was that, the trick is to thin the apples 
> when they are the size of ping pong balls, making selections among closely 
> located specimens... Otherwise, the tree has such a huge hormonal output 
> that it has little energy for the buds it is also preparing for the next 
> year. The trick is to even out its hormonal workload with a result of a 
> more consistent year-to-year yield. Otherwise, what happens is that the 
> buds are few for the following year on the year of a huge apple outlay, and 
> then, in the year with less apples, the buds for the following year are 
> proportionately higher in number... Very interesting to learn about the 
> life cycle of the apple tree, we thought, and to understand more about its 
> productivity cycles.

Once again - I seriously doubt that the phenomena you refer to is an
innate characteristic of apple trees per se. I would expect that trait
to be present in _some_ apple varieties but not all. And remember, those
of you who think seedling apples are inherently bad are rejecting the
means of resolving this issue.  IOW:  If the quality of most seedling
apples is less than ideal, all it means is that we human animals still
have more work to do, since that is exactly where all new varieties come
from:  Chance (or intentionally crossed) Seedlings that are then
reproduced by whatever means, and if the means isn't planting seed, the
genetically instability will continue to remain.  So plant the seeds,
see what you'll get and then plant again. :-)

DH