permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

We tried K9ns and cats but cats here are usually more into birds than rats. 
And K9ns are easier to work on a barge, which is a small Island really than 
on a diverse farm with a very interesting relief and lots of shelter. Our 
dogs are trained to never go in the gardens unless we command them to. They 
do a lot more damage than rats or the odd hare.
We have no snakes here and almost the only plentiful rat eaters are escaped 
mink which are a problem when you have poultry. Rats are canibals and will 
eat dead rats, diluting the aspartame in the environment even further.

I agree with your misgivings on diet coke but think that our way with the 
drink bottles reduces the problem a good bit. And as I said, about two 
liters per year is all it took us to get on top of a desperate situation.
john

> On a side note, a few K9 breeds have been developed in history for
> maintaining rat populations at a minimum on boats and barges. European
> breeds, such as the Schipperke, have been around since the mid to late
> 1800's which was a very significant era of the transworld shipping trade
> and large infestations of brown rats on a global scale due to those 
> trades.
>
> Rats are tough, social, and have few successful predators. I like the
> artificial sweetener idea in the Diet Coke, but it is a poison and the 
> long
> term downstream effect could impact another predator or scavenger species
> in the neighborhood. (not to mention giving $$ to Coca Cola Co.).
>
> Anyways, my two bits. Good luck.
>
> John
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 4:02 PM, John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > Rats are athletes. I have not found a way to create barriers that works. 
> > In
> > the past we had rats eating every last pea of what would normally have
> > given
> > us about 100 kilos of dried peas in less than a week. We trapped them and
> > shot them and driven to desperation I electrified all access routes. They
> > then climbed a 15 foot elderberry tree and jumped from there over all the
> > electric cables into the peas (ten foot high). Other years they would eat
> > all the skirret then all the beetroot.
> > We found that rats exterminate one crop at a time. Only when there is
> > nothing left of one crop do they move on to something else. Even if there
> > is
> > no food in your barn, they will get it outside and drag it to their 
> > nests.
> > Even if they have to climb up a concrete wall 4 meters high.
> >
> > What did cure our rat problem was diet coke and it's artificial 
> > sweeteners.
> > I have just three pet drink bottles hanging up around the gardens and 
> > about
> > 2 liters of diet coke will do us for a year. It is not the gas for I 
> > refill
> > the bottles only when they get empty. Rats love it, mice or voles don't
> > touch it. And the rat numbers are completely down.
> > john
> >
> > > This year I've been dealing with rats in my barnyard.  I'm not
> > > looking for help dealing with that problem: I'm trying to articulate
> > > the pattern I'm seeing within the rubric of permaculture.
> > >
> > > The specific scenario:
> > >
> > > I have a pest[1] (brown rats) that have taken up residence in my
> > > barn.  I have used traps as a control[2], and I've recently taken
> > > to hunting them too.  As I've hunted them, I noticed that they've
> > > used the barnyard environment in a way I hadn't considered/been
> > > aware of.  Building paths and finding routes.  Many of these paths
> > > emerged because of design decisions I'd made: they favor walls,
> > > narrow passages, and dark places.
> > >
> > > I'm working to introduce more barriers[3] to prevent access to
> > > areas I'd rather they not be in.  But this feels underwhelming as
> > > a description of what is happening at the system-level.
> > >
> > > In the permaculture rubric, what am I doing?  What pattern is this?
> > > What phrase describes this activity?  Again, not looking for advice
> > > on rats: I'm looking for hooks I can use to describe these
> > > interactions and help model the patterns.
> > >
> > > Thank you!
> > >
> > > -Alan
> > >
> > > 1: http://sunflowerriver.org/wiki/Pest
> > > 2: http://sunflowerriver.org/wiki/Control
> > > 3: http://sunflowerriver.org/wiki/Barrier
> > > --
> > > .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com