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  • From: Ren.Reeder@cem.com
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] was Ormus- now Toby's insulting rant
  • Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 09:21:18 -0500

As a creationist, I was drawn to permaculture by the intricacies of the
design, and stacking of systems seen in nature. I do believe in a Great
Designer, even Mollison has spoken of a Designer. I also do not tend to
cram my beliefs down others throats, and I respect others right to have
their own opinion and beliefs. I don't see how this harsh banter back and
forth is productive to our (?) common goal of building a community of
diverse people, with each having a contribution to make. I respect Toby's
work, and I do not share his opinion of creationism obviously. However, he
can say what he thinks and feels and so can others. Scientific theory is
how we explore this earth we are on, and hopefully we can come together
and share our knowledge and experiences and develop theories of our own. I
welcome discussion, but we can do this as teachers and students, each one
with something to teach and something to learn. Created equal, but with
different paths.

Thank you, Ren Reeder





From: "wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk" <wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: 03/01/2011 09:07 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] was Ormus- now Toby's insulting rant
Sent by: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org



Toby,

If you disagree fine, but there is no need to insult your fellow listers
with words like 'nonsense', 'loony-bird', 'idiocy' and 'numbskull.'
Using these creationist type tactics to force your opinions down other
peoples throats, is not the way to get you ideas across. I hope that you
do not try to spread your ideas about permaculture in the same way or you
will be doing us all a dis-service.

Chris

--- On Tue, 3/1/11, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:

> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ormus- ORMES
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 12:33 PM
>
> On Feb 28, 2011, at 7:41 PM, wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk
> wrote:
> >
> > Toby,
> > I do not mean to argue with youecially when I
> consider you to be one of the most valuable contributors to
> this list, but I must point out that plate tectonics, just
> like Darwin's evolution, the Big Bang etc are all just
> theories.
>
> I used the phrase "plate tectonics" as shorthand for the
> movement of continental plates and the consequent uplift,
> which are observed facts, not a theory. The relevant
> observed fact here is that large areas of the continents are
> rising and have been for tens or hundreds of millions of
> years, with no sign of slowing down. There is no evidence to
> dispute it. None. There is not one shred of evidence to
> suggest that the continents will disappear "in a few million
> years." The people who wrote that remain inexcusable
> ignoramuses who damage what might be useful work by
> bolstering their words with nonsensical pseudoscience.
>
> I don't think you understand what "theory" means to a
> scientist or philosopher of science. You are using it in the
> same way that the creationists do (I understand that you are
> not a creationist), as in "evolution is just a theory," as
> if there is some doubt about it. Theory does not mean in
> doubt or tentative. To a scientist, a theory is a profoundly
> powerful explanation that is consistent with, and accounts
> for, observed facts. It it a very different use from the lay
> person's, "well, here's my theory." Einstein's theory of
> relativity, Newton's theory of gravity, Darwin's theory of
> evolution by natural selection etc, are "just theories" but
> they explain observed facts in such a coherent manner that
> the likelihood of their being discarded is vanishingly
> small. There is no more powerful word in science for an
> explanation than "theory." We could call the above theories,
> and plate tectonics, "facts," and I do hear scientists speak
> of the fact of evolution because we have seen it
> and measured it. But formally, they are explanations that
> make facts coherent, and not facts themselves, so we don't
> call them facts. Of course, some theories cover facts that
> seem contradictory or don't explain every phenomenon, but
> the overthrowing of a theory as established, and as
> consistent with observation, as plate tectonics just isn't
> going to happen. Geology makes no sense without it, just as
> all of biology and medicine are made coherent only by
> evolution. Those theories may get tweaked, but I am willing
> to bet a large sum that they will never be discarded. (I am
> a student of the philosophy of science, so I appreciate the
> change to rant about this confusion a bit!. It is a
> confusion used as a smokescreen by numbskulls to ignore
> facts that conflict with their religion's stories.)
> >
> > "Textbooks frequently extol plate tectonics theory
> without questioning what might be wrong with the theory or
> without discussing a competitive theory. How can students be
> taught to challenge popular ideas when they are only
> presented a one-sided view?"
>
>
> Nonsense and untrue. We should teach that one plus one
> might make three, just so we give other views? Gimme a
> break. Science is not a democracy where every loony-bird
> gets heard; "God did it" is not science. Besides, all
> the textbooks I've seen describe the steps we went through
> to arrive at plate tectonics, and the flaws, just as every
> evolution explanation I've seen mentions what it fails to
> account for. The author of that quote is simply lying. Most
> textbooks have been forced to include creationism and other
> idiocy because that particular lobby is so powerful. It is
> the facts that are in danger, not the religious myths.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or
> find out more about this list here:
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> and paul@richsoil.com
>



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