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  • From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Market Farming <marketfarming@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] [SANET-MG] Nutrient Dense Food
  • Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:31:18 -0500

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Nutrient Dense Food
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:44:17 -0600
From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

The use of refractometers to measure Brix as an standard indicator
of sweetness has been used for many years in the produce industry
(for pineapple and melons, for example) and I have a couple myself.

IOW, if you offer a trailer load of cantaloupe to a potential buyer,
along with the size and variety, you are likely to be asked "how many
brix"?

The amount and source of potassium available to the plant (added or
present) during cultivation is known to be a determinant factor.

--

Douglas

As has been said, brix is a measurement of dissolved solids. In a plant,
especially leaves during the day, dissolved carbohydrates will be by far
the greatest portion of the brix measurement. Minerals, amino acids,
organic acids, etc. exist in much smaller amounts.

I have used brix leaf testing for many years and have found it to be
relevant to plant health and vigor. It can be used to predict crop
productivity or failure. Of course, there are some rules and caveats to
follow and use to interpret. And, yes, plant brix can be increased short
term (hours to days) and longer term (months to years). This can be used
together with tissue analysis and sap pH to fine tune a plant for high
yield and quality. This is being done by some people very successful. It
can be a bit of a mystery until you find what fertility elements are
most relevant to your particular soil and crop.

I find it amusing to hear the term 'nutrient dense' tossed around now
and the equating to something being 'organically grown'. The vast
majority of produce that I have tasted that came from outside my farm
was not nutrient dense - mediocre taste, poor keeping quality, insect
damage, etc. The sad part is that some relevant education could begin to
change this situation for everyone's benefit.

John Cowan

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 1/11/2011 1:21 PM, John D'hondt wrote:

Many factors other than sugars will raise refractometer Brix readings
such as dissolved vitamins and minerals or acids such as ascorbic acid
(vitamin C).

And some of these will lower the brix reading, no?
john

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Nutrient Dense Food
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:06:32 -0600
From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>, Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C.
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Thursday, January 13, 2011 at 12:11:38 AM, Michael Astera posted:

> > Douglas-
> > Please explain what you mean about potassium being a "determinant factor".
> > My experience has been that high K often means watery tasteless
> > produce, or even bitter produce.
OK, this interchange is about personal experience (no academic
research studies will be cited) and I will repeat what is common
knowledge regarding pineapple quality in Loma Bonita, Oaxaca,
located in the center of the Cuenca de Papaloapan (the Papaloapan
River Basin), the principle pineapple producing area of Mexico
(where 15-20 thousand hectares of pineapple are cultivated yearly).

Naturally, in any one single pineapple growing area, pineapple
plants will flower over a span of 1.5 to 2 months, which means that
pineapple will be available for harvest over a 2-3 month time frame
each year, much of which will occur during the rainy season - which
limits the shelf life of the fruit.

Since the demand and need for pineapple exceeds the time frame
during which pineapple from naturally flowering pineapple plants is
available, most pineapple sold is derived from plants whose
flowering was induced by unnatural means. (Pineapple plants are
induced to flower early using either ethylene or calcium carbide,
-which releases acetylene in the presence of humidity- and organic
pineapple growers were able to convince the Organic Standards Board
that one or both of these means is required in order to produce
organic pineapple).

However - pineapple plants that flower naturally are much more
capable of producing a good quality crop (one pineapple per plant,
two or three if the ratoons -offshoots- are allowed to be produced
during the next year or two) without fertilization. This means that
the vast majority of the pineapple marketed required a strict
regimen of fertilizer applications of one kind or another.

It's common knowledge in the Cuenca that failure to apply enough
potassium will produce pineapple that lack sufficient brix and the
type of potassium fertilizer (generally, potassium sulfate or
potassium chloride for conventional pineapple) applied will also
affect the outcome (particularly in relation to acidity).

Personally, the best pineapple I've eaten in Mexico comes from the
Los Robles, Veracruz Region, which (according to pineapple specialists
working with the National Institute for Agricultural and Forestry
Research -INIFAP- has a high amount of naturally occurring potassium
in it's soil, which is considered responsible for the unusually high
quality of it's pineapple).

So - my understanding / assumptions about the role of potassium in
relation to brix (specifically or particularly in pineapple) are
different than yours.

Also, while the perception of "unusually high quality" is related at
least IN PART to brix in pineapple (and oil content in relation to
avocado - since sweetness in avocados is considered to be a negative
factor), without-a-doubt this perception depends also on other
concomitant factors, and forming a single factor basis that accounts for
what is (after all) a subjective phenomena may be an impossible task.

I am NOT saying that brix is not a valuable indicator of something
that has yet to be fully defined (and I could support John Cowan's
statement):

I have used brix leaf testing for many years and have found it to
be relevant to plant health and vigor. It can be used to predict
crop productivity or failure. Of course, there are some rules and
caveats to follow and use to interpret. And, yes, plant brix can
be increased short term (hours to days) and longer term (months to
years). This can be used together with tissue analysis and sap pH
to fine tune a plant for high yield and quality. This is being
done by some people very successful. It can be a bit of a mystery
until you find what fertility elements are most relevant to your
particular soil and crop.

But I seriously doubt that ANY labeling effort will convince
consumers that products with a particular label represent the "way
they should go".

I guess I am saying that IMO, we DON'T need another magic bullet /
label to convince people that certain products are better for their
health than others, in part due to the limitations that Organic
Certification (as required by OFPA) imposes (the idea that Organic
Food per se has somehow been standardized or even defined by the
certification process is both ludicrous and meaningless - people go
for it because there's not much else around to go on - unless they
personally know the grower and/or the farm operation -which is a
thousand times preferable to OFPA imposed one-size-fits-all
certification).

In short:

People want uncontaminated Food;

People trust Natural Systems over patented and/or for-profit based
ones;

People know by personal experience what makes them feel good and
perform well.

If a comprehensive, holistic scientific/logical and detailed
explanation can be given that accounts for the majority of the
population's preferences and reactions, that would be nice.

But what the world REALLY needs isn't another gimmick but rather,
wholesale subscription / adaptation to a biologically, ecologically
and evolutionarily valid Agricultural Production Systems as a
national priority, and that may require profound changes to both the
educational system and culture in general (something no presidential
candidate I'm aware of is likely to provide).

But while the doubts I've expressed here are real and well founded,
they may not be insurmountable (so keep trying).

-- Douglas



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Nutrient Dense Food
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:36:34 -0700
From: John Cowan <johncowan@BLUEBOTTLE.COM>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

On 1/12/2011 11:11 PM, Michael Astera wrote:
> Please explain what you mean about potassium being a "determinant factor".
>
> My experience has been that high K often means watery tasteless
> produce, or even bitter produce.
Do you mean high in the soil or in the plant? In the soil, I would agree
that if potassium is high in relation to calcium and magnesium there are
going to be quality problems. In the plant, potassium is often on the
low side especially with high yielding fruiting crops. This can be
definitively indicated by testing the potassium level of the older
leaves vs. the new leaves as the plant seeks to maintain potassium
sufficiency in the new growth while sacrificing the functioning of the
older leaves. Tip or leaf edge burn on older leaves is a very common
visual indicator but too late for crop remediation. ~ John Cowan




  • Re: [permaculture] [SANET-MG] Nutrient Dense Food, Lawrence F. London, Jr., 01/13/2011

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