permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Jason, 
I strongly agree with you that these things are important - fully executed 
permaculture design projects of many types to demonstrate the principles 
actually working; working with communities, making the connections, etc. I do 
lots of community organizing (have put together groups of hundreds of active 
gardeners, put together "sustainable network" databases, bioregional work, 
public permaculture projects, etc) and work with governments and policy 
makers but I've never figured out a way to get paid for that or get some sort 
of energy from it that would allow me to meet my needs. It appears that 
governments and communities are willing to take anything I give them without 
returning the flow. This could be my personal aberration, maybe other people 
are doing this and getting paid or supported in some way, but my solution has 
been to teach for money and fund my community/bioregional project work with 
that.  I could design for money but would prefer to focus
 on volunteer community design projects that will set an example for many - 
like multifunction community gardens, etc. 
Do you have any ideas of how permaculturists could do the type of work you 
propose and make a living at it or somehow meet their needs while doing it?  
I think a lot more of us might do that full time if we could solve that 
problem. I would work 60-80 hours a week doing that type of work if I didn't 
still have to pay some money for rent, etc. I'm not totally off the grid yet 
and have chosen to stay in urban areas and places that are working to get 
off, and to travel, for strategical and ethical reasons - they need me worse 
than an off-grid intentional community does right now. But that means I still 
need money or something that allows me to eat, have shelter, etc. I'm a 
single mom supporting two kids who are full time students as well.
Cory

--- On Sat, 11/6/10, Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 9:01 PM

Kelly,
I couldn't agree more with what you wrote in your post!  I see some local
frustration in your writing and resonate with that as well.  Personal note:
 Having been part of a Teacher Training course in early 2008 that 95%
consisted of very recent PDC grads I was dismayed and disappointed initially
feeling like all the years previous that I put in with multiple PDC's,
Advanced Design Course, internships, mentorships, design projects, etc, was
not required of all participants.  It felt odd to follow the traditional
recommendations and see others get by without putting in the time.  However,
it became apparent that those without the practice time and experience would
not excel at teaching a subject they had only been introduced to through a
PDC.  Since then I have observed most of those trainees taking the time to
put the experience under their feet as they have realized on their own that
they were not prepared to teach.  The observations from that experience
prove to me that there is inherent value in being strict about a structured
course of action for Permaculture training.  My preferred sequence would be
for students to start with a PDC, practice for 2+ years, take advanced
design course, more practice for a couple years prior to taking the Teacher
Training, then apprenticing for many, many years before going out on ones
own.  Of course, as you say, there needs to be a way of valuing the previous
experience of students in other fields like restoration ecology, landscape
design, alternative education, etc.

Alternatively, it is part of my vision to have Teacher Trainings focus more
on community organizing than occupational permaculture teaching.  More than
ever we need to teach people how to work in their communities and institute
design projects.  Such a course would focus on working with
neighbors/HOAs/Governments/NGOs/schools, etc.  Perhaps a more fruitful
setting for permaculture teachers is along fence lines, in alleyways, and
across streets instead of in classrooms, with the goal of actually putting
permaculture systems on the ground.  I believe we have a dire lack of active
well-developed permaculture sites across the country, and I'll continue to
believe this until we have multiple sites in every neighborhood.  Therefore,
it is my goal to contribute as much as I can to that end.  From this
perspective teaching becomes a focus on supporting the development of very
competent Permaculture Designers who can effectively speak about
permaculture and create openings for the demonstration of the principles and
concepts and go on to guide the implementation of such projects.

Thanks for sharing and listening,
Jason
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Cultural diversity in PDCs (was official cert)
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Hello,
>From my 14 years spent in Arizona, learning and then teaching Permaculture,
I found that there are a number of Native American Permaculture teachers in
AZ and NM. Their courses are not publicized to the general population. They
work within their communities and with their people in a culturally
appropriate way. Some of these teachers initially learned Permaculture
through white teachers, but then they moved on to doing the work with their
people, and they are successfull it that way. I have brought classes as well
as consulted with teachers and projects on the Hopi and Navajo reservations.
I experienced that teachers like Lillian Hill in Kykotsmovi, Roberto
Nutlouis in Pinon, Justin Willie in Leupp and others were very well
respected in their communities and were doing powerful work, especially with
the youth.

I think it is very natural for especially tribal minorities in the US to
want to be contained in their own communities, who are are historically
skeptical of outsiders (for good reason). It takes years to build bridges of
trust with so much awful history between races. The cultural sensitivity,
knowing how it is appropriate to dress, when to speak, and levels of eye
contact and personal space, can make mainstream whites appear as fish out of
water. The subtleties of appropriate conduct are not always obvious by any
means.

It takes a special person to overcome those unspoken barriers, and I applaud
those who make it their mission to be that person who merges paradigms like
that. Gary Paul Nabhan (who created Native SEEDS/SEARCH) is the best example
I can think of.

Andrew

On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Rhonda <rk.baird@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Kelly, and Cory, I agree with most of what you say.
> And I think there is plenty of room for everyone to learn permaculture. The
> one thing that I would add is that just because a permaculture teacher looks
> a certain way in a photo, doesn't mean he or she does not have an element of
> cultural diversity to bring to the table--or that he only has a "white
> middle class" perspective. I organized for ACORN in Chicago and Milwaukee
> black and Latino neighborhoods over a decade ago. Consistently I was told by
> community members to go home and organize my white, rural, (often poor)
> community--that the urban communities would organize themselves.
> If you want to see the work of a former student/friend doing just that--see
> Black Oaks Center for Sustainable Renewable Living. (
> http://www.blackoakscenter.org)
> warmly,
>
> Rhonda Baird
> Sheltering Hills Design
> Permaculture Designer & Teacher
> Editorial Services
> Fiber Artsshelteringhills.net
>
> This message may contain confidential and/or proprietary information, and
> is intended for the person/entity to whom it was originally addressed. Any
> use by others is strictly prohibited.
>
> --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Cultural diversity in PDCs (was official cert)
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 10:40 PM
>
> You have of course Geoff Lawton, Darren Doherty and many others who go to
> culturally diverse areas to teach. I create cultural diversity in PDCs, by
> holding them in culturally diverse areas (Little Haiti in Miami, Pine Ridge,
> etc), by offering scholarships to people to ensure there is a socio-economic
> mix, and by ensuring the content of the course is culturally sensitive and
> relevant. And by visiting minority communities and introducing permaculture
> in a culturally relevant manner, understanding what problems are considered
> important by observing and asking. And doing projects in minority areas,
> which is very powerful because then they see for themselves how it works and
> get their own creative ideas about it and expand on it. I know a number of
> permaculturists focused on cultural diversity, they are definitely out
> there!  There can always be more though!  C
>
> --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Kelly Simmons <kelly@bouldersustainability.org>
> wrote:
>
> From: Kelly Simmons <kelly@bouldersustainability.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] Cultural diversity in PDCs (was official cert)
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 7:06 PM
>
> There is one little nugget  for me in what Killian was saying, that I would
> like to chew on with interested folks on this list and that is the
> over-riding "white middleclass" nature of many state-side PDCs.
>
> I think I hear clearly what Toby was saying and I largely agree with a lot
> of it, but I confess that I am bothered by the lack of real diversity in our
> courses and students and leaders and teachers.  Not entirely, of course, but
> largely.
>
> Is there a better way to energize more Latino or African American community
> members to come learn permaculture?, Is there a way to "make relevant"
> permaculture ideas to these communities?  [I admit up front that I haven't
> been to every community or every PDC, so please don't flame me, if your
> situation is a shining example, but I don't see much diversity reflected in
> teachers, photos, or students and people I meet who are engaged in
> permaculture].
>
> Anyway, I see permaculture as a bottom up, empowerment tool and it bothers
> me that, except for some development work overseas, at least in the States,
> it is the more culturally privileged among us who are attending and teaching
> our PDCs.
>
> These are observations and ruminations, and I am interested in what people
> think.  I agree that the hippie, flakey view hurts permaculture in some
> ways. Perhaps its a big turnoff to communities of color....
>
> I am excited to be attending a Bioneers conference, where there are some
> presentations on indigenous ecological knowledge and I know there is great
> work going on up at Pine Ridge.
>
> But perhaps we need to start making cultural diversity a priority - because
> missing a diversity of views impoverishes our thinking and our solutions.
> For example Cory's reflection on listening and speaking in circle up at Pine
> Ridge.  Perhaps there is some "white middle class privilege" embedded or
> woven throughout our teaching or how PDCs operate that we are blind to.  And
> this blindness makes participation more wearing and difficult for people of
> color.  I wonder.
>
> Or perhaps I am somehow blind to all the cultural diversity in US
> PDCs......
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Kelly
>
>
>
> On Oct 24, 2010, at 3:53 PM, paul wheaton wrote:
>
> > I think, Killian, you should take on the task of getting the
> > permaculture word to those folks that you see as unable to afford the
> > work that others are providing.
> >
> > If everybody spreads the word according to the ways that they are
> > comfortable with, it should reach a lot of people.
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