permaculture

[A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>]

deterring deer.
One of my students in Humansville MO wrote uses chokes (jerusalem 
artichokes) to deter the deer, he plants them in a boundary bed of 3m 
deep and says the deer hate moving through the chokes.
In Sweden they use urine of wolf/dog/man along the roadside to deter 
them from venturing on the road.
Here we use solar powered electric fencing in a maze set-up so they 
can't get through easily even if the break a section.

April S-Kelly PermacultureVisions.com



On 2/11/2010 11:37 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>         permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>     2. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and Deer (Paul Cross)
>     3. Re: hierarchy (Joan Stevens)
>     4. Re: hierarchies and networks (Cory Brennan)
>     5. Re: Permaculture in Guatemala (Hannah Roessler)
>     6. moles, voles, gophers, and deer, oh my (Rain Tenaqiya)
>     7. Re: hierarchies and networks (Cory Brennan)
>     8. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers (Keith Johnson)
>     9. Fwd: Permaculture in and around Washington, DC (L. Santoyo)
>    10. Re: Fwd: Permaculture in and around Washington, DC
>        (chauncey williams)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:19:58 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers
> Message-ID:<4CCF04CE.4040204@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
> > Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or deter voles, moles, gophers
> > or deers.
> Deer:
>
> Build a deer fence, non-electrified.
> Use 10' posts, cedar or locust or other slow rotting wood or buy
> 8' (minimum) or 10' Steel T-Posts from farm supply outlets. Place the
> posts about 15 feet apart and attach 6' or 7' foot dogwire (2X4 welded
> wire fencing, the cheapest available) to it. For additional coverage
> weave tree branches (cedar is great) within the fencing for additional
> height .
> Or just forget the metal fencing components and use wood posts and rails
> and weave tree branches within the rails for coverage, replenished as
> necessary.
>
> Gophers: trap them, relocate or feed to vultures or compost pile
>
> Voles, never seen one. Moles, lik fire ants are Natures little rototillers
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:13:03 -0600
> From: Paul Cross<charybda@newmex.com>
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and Deer
> Message-ID:<4CCF032F.9040506@newmex.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I've concluded that deer are only fully deterred by physical barriers.
> You can cage or wrap individual trees. Or you can fence an entire field,
> but it has to be higher than they will jump, and they sure can jump
> high! Here I make the fences 7.5'/2.3m tall. I have not had success with
> shorter baited electric fences, allegedly deer resistant plantings, or
> deterring scents. I'm not sure if keeping dogs is cheaper than fencing,
> but a couple of dogs will keep deer away most of the time.
>
> For those subterranean critters, I am sorry to say that trapping and
> poisoning are all that has worked here.
>
> In organic certified areas, we use "Black Hole" traps baited with peanut
> butter. It is a lot of work finding the main tunnels, setting up traps,
> checking the traps, etc. But it is effective. The black hole traps are
> easily located by an internet search so you can see what they look like.
> They last for years.
>
> You can trench and fence around an area to discourage burrowing animals
> from crossing over the area. A trench 2'/60cm deep with wire mesh on one
> side will give two means of protection. First, when the pest digs out to
> find an open trench their instinct is to plug the hole and turn around.
> Next they would not get through the wire mesh if they tried. I have not
> tried this technique.
>
> In non-organic areas I got licensed to use aluminum phosphide (aka
> Fumitoxin.) But I have yet to actually use it. It is a dangerous
> substance (hence the need for training and licensing) but has the
> advantage of having little to no danger of a secondary poisoning if
> another animal were to find and eat the carcass of the dead rodent. You
> have to be careful not to use it where there are burrowing owls using an
> abandoned hole. That is easy to see because there will be owl scat
> around the burrow. You should also be aware of ferrets it there are
> ferrets in your area. You want to keep the ferrets and owls.
>
> Cats, owls, coyotes, and dogs are all a little bit helpful in reducing
> voles and gophers. But I have zero tolerance for these pests in any
> perennial area. I've lost thousands of dollars due to killed fruit trees
> until I decided to trap. I make 100% of my living through growing and
> cannot afford to have such losses that those pests can create. I do have
> wild areas where those pests are allowed to exist, but they cannot be
> tolerated in production areas.
>
> Paul Cross
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Joan Stevens<mamabotanica@sbcglobal.net>
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchy
> Message-ID:<121264.26346.qm@web81201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I am jumping in where I have little background on where the?conversation has
> gone - the hazards of those who only?pop into this listserve every once in a
> while.
>
> There are some great?examples of hierarchy in the natural world.? How about 
> the
> way your body works - an assemblage of organs and systems that are
> controlled/prioritized by the brain (mostly)?? Or?a lovely example from?Janine
> Benyus (author of Biomimicry) of how muscle tissue is organized - smaller
> bundles arranged into?larger groups that all?perform their specific function 
> in
> service to the larger whole (also ultimately directed by the nervous
> system/brain).
>
> Anyway, I'm a fan for not following any dogma about the "right way" to
> organize.? Seems like as permaculturists we ought to be flexible enough to
> recognize that difference purposes also require different kinds of structure. 
> I
> wouldn't want my body organized by consensus.? You think?your digits would
> willingly give themselves up to save?your core body temperature?? Doubt it. 
> and
> sometimes that's what's required to save the organism.
> My $.02
> Joan
>
> ?"...the greatest change we need to make is from consumption to production, 
> even
> if on a small scale, in our own gardens. If only 10% of us do this, there is
> enough for everyone.
> Hence the futility of revolutionaries who have no gardens, who depend on the
> very system they attack, and who produce words and bullets, not food and
> shelter."
>
>
>
> - Bill Mollison
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:08:53 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> Message-ID:<840321.13634.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Standards only become isms when they are ossified or become controlled by 
> entrenched, heirarchical vested interests and people forget where those 
> standards came from. How about as part of the standards, we create
>
> 1. a review and evolution process based on results and workability, so that 
> the subject can continue to evolve as appropriate
>
> 2. a curriculum that enables people to think with the subject rather than 
> rotely learn it
>
> #2 is one reason we focus on teaching principles of permaculture as the core 
> curriculum, focusing on showing how many ways and in how many sectors they can be 
> applied. Once one understands the basic laws of natural systems, and how to observe 
> those systems, one is not nearly as likely to fall for "isms".
>
> If we focus on achieving multiple intelligence understanding of natural systems, we create life 
> long students of those systems, rather than students of "isms".  The only real way to 
> apply permaculture is by observing the system, there is no way around it. That is why I'm so 
> thrilled with this subject, because to the degree we do that, we cannot end up with an 
> "ism."
>
> Cory
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>
> > From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:03 AM
> >
> > Both your messages are important things to consider. I
> > suspect that if a standard of organization is implemented
> > for permaculture it will be a sign that it has become an
> > "ism" instead of a way of living. The ism tends to become a
> > creature unto itself, and the original goals can suffer as a
> > result.
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:25:26 -0400
> > > From: lflj@bellsouth.net
> > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> > >
> > > On 10/31/2010 5:54 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> > > > One subject we touched on in the recent
> > certification thread was new and old tools for change, and
> > the difference
> > > > between hierarchical and decentralized
> > organizations and tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes
> > for decentralized
> > > > leadership tools, like consensus, but was
> > disappointed by how rarely they live up to their promise.
> > I've been
> > > > skeptical of the value of these and similar
> > methods to actually produce change, and have found the
> > older
> > > > tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at
> > least as effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions
> > of these
> > > > tools to exclusive).
> > > They say that the world is run by those who show up.
> > > And, freedom of the press belong to those who own
> > one.
> > > However, these thoughts have been circulating lately:
> > a permaculture heirarchical oversight organization
> > > that offers, like a governmental agencies that have no
> > teeth and only can offer recommendations at best to
> > > those who do have the power to put laws, rule and
> > regulations in place.
> > > You vote with your feet. Permaculture teachers,
> > organizations, consultants and designers and anyone who
> > would hire a
> > > permaculture professional simply could require that
> > they have proven expertise, knowledge and a certificate(s)
> > of having
> > > completed training and fieldwork before being hired.
> > This phoo could help those professionals in training by
> > offering a
> > > set of permaculture standards, similar to the Organic
> > Rule for USDA certified organic farms and an outline and
> > > description of standard coursework that should be
> > required of anyone seeking status as a certified
> > permaculture
> > > professional. This process could be elevated to
> > community college and university level coursework.
> > > Do read my suggestion about the need to recognize and
> > help those who cannot afford any training but want to play a
> >
> > > significant role in their communities as permaculture
> > mentors, teachers, activists (political too, if necessary),
> > > consultants, designers and local practitioners within
> > a growing community of like-minded individuals (this would
> > be so
> > > important to so many, just think about that if you're
> > thinking about ways to make waves for forge the future).
> > > > I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker
> > magazines this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an
> > article that
> > > > fits right in to this conversation, "Small
> > Change" by Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book
> > "The Tipping
> > > > Point" and in general being a whole systems
> > thinker. He's made the points I would have liked to have
> > made. I was
> > > > intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good
> > for doing design, and that they are better at preserving the
> > status
> > > > quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the
> > article.
> > > > "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and
> > procedures, networks aren?t controlled by a single central
> > authority.
> > > > Decisions are made through consensus, and the
> > ties that bind people to the group are loose. This structure
> > makes
> > > > networks enormously resilient and adaptable in
> > low-risk situations. Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
> > > > "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
> > network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it just
> > wants to
> > > > frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or if it
> > doesn?t need to think strategically. But if you?re
> > taking on a
> > > > powerful and organized establishment you have to
> > be a hierarchy . . . .
> > > Wonderful thinking!
> > >
> > > LL
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> > here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Read the public message archives here:
> > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > > Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> > search these archives:
> > > site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> > string (omit the brackets)]
> > > List Usage&  Guidelines:
> > > http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> > > Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> > > Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> > > http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> > > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > > List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> >   ???
> > ????????
> > ?????? ???
> > ?
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> > here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Read the public message archives here:
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> > search these archives:
> > site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> > string (omit the brackets)]
> > List Usage&  Guidelines:
> > http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> > Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> > Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> > http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:06:22 -0400
> From: Hannah Roessler<hannahroessler@hotmail.com>
> To:<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
> Message-ID:<COL106-W529752614348E5502970C2CC480@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hi there,
> Try Roni Lec at IMAP, near San Lucas Toliman.
>
> > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 08:30:21 -0700
> > From: daveyisdavey@yahoo.com
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
> >
> > please i am looking for some folks practicing in Guatemala.
> >
> > if you are there yourself or were there once before or know someone who is 
> > there
> > or know someone who was there.... please contact me.
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Read the public message archives here:
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
> > site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the 
> > brackets)]
> > List Usage&  Guidelines:
> > http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> > Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> > Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> > http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>                                         
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rain Tenaqiya<raincascadia@yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [permaculture] moles, voles, gophers, and deer, oh my
> Message-ID:<477155.92191.qm@web65812.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The first permaculture principle that comes to mind here is to turn a problem 
> into a solution: eat them.? If you can't bring yourself to do that than my 
> experience with each of these is the following:
> ?
> 1.? Moles- aren't much of a problem except where they mess up foundations, 
> paths, or greywater pipes, etc.? They are carnivores and pretty much leave 
> plants alone.? If necessary, underground mole traps or a cat work pretty well.
> ?
> 2.? Voles- the bane of my existence, making it very difficult to establish 
> trees and impossible to have an annual garden.? Trapping is the only 
> guaranteed solution for an annual garden, but a cat can be good enough for 
> perennials.? Vole population and behavior vary widely by climate, vegetation, 
> population dynamics, etc.? I am in a Mediterranean climate with oak 
> savannah.? Simply observe where voles are currently active and put regular 
> mouse traps in their tunnels and paths, covered with buckets or pots to keep 
> out cats and to make a safer-feeling environment for the voles.? The traps 
> with the wide plastic ramp-triggers work best.? Trees and other perennials 
> must be planted with aviary wire all the way around their roots and?the upper 
> six inches of trunk?to be totally safe, though I often just use plastic 
> bottles with their bottoms cut out around small plants, with three or more 
> inches sticking above the ground for small or cheap plants that
>   voles seem less interested in.? During dips in the vole population, you can 
> sometimes get trees or shrubs established without much trouble, but this is 
> very risky and voles have been known to topple mature trees like figs.
> ?
> 3.? Gophers- similar to voles, though fewer in number, thus making them 
> easier to trap.? Traps usually must be specifically made for voles and all 
> tunnels are underground, making the setting of traps trickier and more 
> laborious.?
> ?
> 4.? Deer- fencing deer is the only long-term solution, other than killing 
> them.? Depending on the topography and population density, fencing must be 
> more or less elaborate.? I've used two inch mesh chicken wire on posts set 15 
> ft apart with the fencing only six feet high with few problems.? The plastic 
> fencing also works great, though degrades faster if in the sun.? Eight ft is 
> recommended in more densely populated areas, though you can get away with 
> shorter fencing by putting lines of twine above the fencing, spaced every ft 
> or so.? White flagging helps the deer see the twine.? Two four foot high 
> barriers spaced four feet apart also works, and one or both of these can be 
> hedges, so fencing can be reduced by live barriers over time.? Dense bamboo 
> can work, for example.? Fencing with ground receding on the outside works 
> better than the opposite.? Less sturdy fencing requires more observation and 
> maintenance.? Trained dogs can also keep deer
>   away.
> ?
> For trees out in the open, I've used five ft high fencing cut in seven ft 
> pieces to make rounds that are secured on one or more stakes.? This is the 
> minimum protection trees need to grow above the browse level, and most 
> branches within the fence will eventually get chewed off by the deer.? I 
> often have to use sticks to direct the branches up and away from the 
> fencing.? Wider fencing would be better, but would require more stakes.? 
> Eventually, the fencing can be removed, but you need to watch for deer 
> destroying the trunks by rubbing their antlers on them during the rutting 
> season (Fall).? This is more common in open country, and may require 
> basically permanent wire mesh or other barriers on the trunks.
> ?
> Keep in mind that everything I've said is from my experience on the US West Coast, and 
> conditions may be different elsewhere.? Also beware of gimmicky recommendations like 
> putting scents out to deter beasts, or those silly solar vibrator things (which may 
> work on a limited scale when move around frequently).? For real subsistence food 
> growing situations, "easy" solutions will not work over time, in my 
> experience.
> ?
> Good luck,
> ?
> Rain
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> Message-ID:<4414.1313.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> In some of the projects I've been involved with, we haven't had time to get 
> consensus - there were too many life and death situations and sometimes we 
> just acted without asking anybody, because we knew what to do to save lives 
> and even simply explaining to someone who didn't understand it or agree with 
> it would take too long.
>
> In less grim situations, I've seen consensus minus one, or 85% majority, or 
> other non-unanimous varieties work well and not be abused, personally. Maybe 
> it is the groups I've been in. We never used it to ignore the concerns of the 
> holdout - part of the deal was to allow the dissenting parties to state why 
> they are dissenting. I found that people would communicate to that person 
> after the meeting and continue to try to work with the person to meet their 
> concerns. In one case, the person was clearly intent on disrupting the 
> activities of the group to get what they wanted, and we asked the person to 
> leave, but only after giving them several chances to work it out. The project 
> could have been seriously disrupted if we had continued to try to accomodate 
> this individual. I do not feel that one person should be able to hold up the 
> forward progress of an entire group if the rest of them are working smoothly 
> together and making progress toward a mutual goal. That
>   person should, instead, find a group he/she can agree with and work with. 
> There are lots of tribes out there!
>
> I like that juries must reach consensus to convict. There are certain 
> decisions that I feel consensus should be used to make. Being able to discuss 
> a matter and reach consensus on it is a very useful skill set, but I've also 
> found hierarchies quite useful.
>
> Cory
>
> --- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>
> > From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:00 AM
> >
> > I wonder if the division between heirarchy and
> > decentralization is sometimes too "either-or", when small,
> > decentralized heirarchies may be an avenue to use strong
> > leadership. Consensus without strong individuals can
> > SOMETIMES lead to weak groups, vulnerable to outside
> > conditions that end up "steering the drifting boat".
> > I do think that small heirarchies that are limited in their
> > vertical intgration must have a common theme to be
> > effective, be it philosophical, spiritual, familial, or
> > other. But then, groups using consensus also need that
> > cohesion. Also necessary for those limited heirarchies is
> > the true willingness of the leadership to consult and listen
> > to all members, with real inclusiveness. This is probably
> > less possible if a group exceeds fifty or so members.
> > One ptfall I found that ruined several groups run by
> > consensus was the silly idea of "consensus minus one" which
> > was promoted as a way to avoid being bogged down by a
> > stick-in-the-mud individual but always became a way of
> > ignoring the wisdom or concerns of the last holdout to
> > consensus. Consensus minus one is nothing like consensus and
> > denatures the whole purpose.
> > How do other permaculture groups deal with this?
> >
> > > From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> > > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:54:09 -0700
> > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> > >
> > > One subject we touched on in the recent certification
> > thread was new and old tools for change, and the difference
> > between hierarchical and decentralized organizations and
> > tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes for decentralized
> > leadership tools, like consensus, but was disappointed by
> > how rarely they live up to their promise. I've been
> > skeptical of the value of these and similar methods to
> > actually produce change, and have found the older
> > tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at least as
> > effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions of these
> > tools to exclusive).
> > > I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker magazines
> > this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an article that
> > fits right in to this conversation, "Small Change" by
> > Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book "The
> > Tipping Point" and in general being a whole systems thinker.
> > He's made the points I would have liked to have made. I was
> > intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good for doing
> > design, and that they are better at preserving the status
> > quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the article.
> > > "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and procedures,
> > networks aren?t controlled by a single central authority.
> > Decisions are made through consensus, and the ties that bind
> > people to the group are loose. This structure makes networks
> > enormously resilient and adaptable in low-risk situations.
> > Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
> > > "There are many things, though, that networks don?t
> > do well. Car companies sensibly use a network to organize
> > their hundreds of suppliers, but not to design their cars.
> > No one believes that the articulation of a coherent design
> > philosophy is best handled by a sprawling, leaderless
> > organizational system. Because networks don?t have a
> > centralized leadership structure and clear lines of
> > authority, they have real difficulty reaching consensus and
> > setting goals. They can?t think strategically; they are
> > chronically prone to conflict and error. How do you make
> > difficult choices about tactics or strategy or philosophical
> > direction when everyone has an equal say?
> > > "The Palestine Liberation Organization originated as a
> > network, and the international-relations scholars Mette
> > Eilstrup-Sangiovanni and Calvert Jones argue in a recent
> > essay in International Security that this is why it ran into
> > such trouble as it grew: ?Structural features typical of
> > networks?the absence of central authority, the unchecked
> > autonomy of rival groups, and the inability to arbitrate
> > quarrels through formal mechanisms?made the P.L.O.
> > excessively vulnerable to outside manipulation and internal
> > strife.?
> > > "In Germany in the nineteen-seventies, they go on,
> > ?the far more unified and successful left-wing terrorists
> > tended to organize hierarchically, with professional
> > management and clear divisions of labor." . . . They seldom
> > betrayed their comrades in arms during police
> > interrogations. Their counterparts on the right were
> > organized as decentralized networks, and had no such
> > discipline. These groups were regularly infiltrated, and
> > members, once arrested, easily gave up their comrades.
> > Similarly, Al Qaeda was most dangerous when it was a unified
> > hierarchy. Now that it has dissipated into a network, it has
> > proved far less effective.
> > > "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
> > network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it just
> > wants to frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or if it
> > doesn?t need to think strategically. But if you?re
> > taking on a powerful and organized establishment you have to
> > be a hierarchy . . . .
> > > "But [network-based activism] is simply a form of
> > organizing which favors the weak-tie connections that give
> > us access to information over the strong-tie connections
> > that help us persevere in the face of danger. It shifts our
> > energies from organizations that promote strategic and
> > disciplined activity and toward those which promote
> > resilience and adaptability. It makes it easier for
> > activists to express themselves, and harder for that
> > expression to have any impact. The instruments of social
> > media are well suited to making the existing social order
> > more efficient. They are not a natural enemy of the status
> > quo. If you are of the opinion that all the world needs is a
> > little buffing around the edges, this should not trouble
> > you. But if you think that there are still lunch counters
> > out there that need integrating [Gladwell mentioned civil
> > rights activists] it ought to give you pause."
> > > The full article is at
> > > http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/04/101004fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> > here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Read the public message archives here:
> > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > > Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> > search these archives:
> > > site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> > string (omit the brackets)]
> > > List Usage&  Guidelines:
> > > http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> > > Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> > > Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> > > http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> > > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > > List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> >   ???
> > ????????
> > ?????? ???
> > ?
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> > here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Read the public message archives here:
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> > search these archives:
> > site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> > string (omit the brackets)]
> > List Usage&  Guidelines:
> > http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> > Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> > Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> > http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 20:29:42 -0400
> From: Keith Johnson<keithdj@mindspring.com>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers
> Message-ID:<4CCF5B76.9050206@mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> To repel voles, moles and gophers, plant lots of daffodils and
> narcissus, especially as part of a fruit tree guild. This will not get
> rid of them but will help prevent the voles in particular from
> munching roots of favored trees / shrubs. If you are in Ca and dealing
> with pocket gophers, the bulbs will help but planting in buried wire
> "cages" was the standard way landscapers dealt with the problem.
> Hardware stores out there carried them in a variety of sizes. Moles do
> not generally eat roots but rather grubs and worms. They stir the soil
> quite effectively. For example I just harvested about 6 buckets of
> beautiful mole (or gopher) diggings from the edge of my compost heap.
> A.P. Thompson, a Virginia orchardist, developed the practice of
> back-filling fruit tree plantings with a gravel and soil mix as a way
> to discourage rodents. I've tried it and it seems to work. You'll want
> to use sharp gravel rather than a rounded pea gravel. You can also
> trap them with various devices. I've heard of folks putting a hose on
> their muffler and gassing them with CO (carbon monoxide). I
> encountered folks in CA who were using a VERY high-powered vacuum
> cleaner to suck them out of the ground. Some people swear that leaving
> juicy fruit gum in their tunnels screws up their intestines but I have
> not confirmed this.
>
> See this link for a trick I haven't tried using "castor bean oil
> granules".
> http://www.hgtv.com/landscaping/no-more-gophers-or-moles/index.html
>
> I also grow castor beans and a plant called gopher spurge
> (Eurphobiaceae) which may or may not repel them, but are fun to grow
> anyway. I've even had deer EAT castor bean plants (which are quite
> toxic, especially the seed).
>
> Fencing for the deer is my best choice as I don't have a dog.
>
> On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
> > Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or deter voles, moles, gophers
> > or deers.
> > Thanks for the help.