permaculture

[Carl DuPoldt <cdupoldt@yahoo.com>]

http://www.commoncircle.com/ 
http://www.permaculture.org/nm/index.php/site/permaculture_design_course/ 
http://www.permaculture.org/nm/index.php/site/index/ 
http://www.oaec.org/permaculture-design 
http://www.barkingfrogspermaculture.org/onlinepdc.htm 
http://www.earthflow.com/ 
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/DesignCourse/PcSyllabus.htm 
http://www.dfwpermaculture.com/ 


      
>From admin@pri-de.org  Sun Oct 24 03:15:18 2010
Return-Path: <admin@pri-de.org>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id A2E034C02B; Sun, 24 Oct 2010 03:15:18 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: ***
X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.5 required=5.0 tests=SARE_COLLEGE_SCAM
        autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from qmta02.westchester.pa.hmc1.comcast.net
        (qmta02.westchester.pa.hmc1.comcast.net [76.96.53.9])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE4D4C01D
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Sun, 24 Oct 2010 03:15:16 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from omta02.westchester.pa.hmc1.comcast.net ([76.96.53.7])
        by qmta02.westchester.pa.hmc1.comcast.net with comcast
        id NX8h1f00309Ku2s09XFGML; Sun, 24 Oct 2010 07:15:16 +0000
Received: from hmc1.comcast.net ([76.96.48.62])
        by omta02.westchester.pa.hmc1.comcast.net with bizsmtp
        id NXFG1f0011LWMcC02XFGNq; Sun, 24 Oct 2010 07:15:16 +0000
Received: from P1EC1EVS03.HMC1.COMCAST.NET ([76.96.48.19]) by
        P1HUB04.HMC1.COMCAST.NET ([76.96.48.62]) with mapi;
        Sun, 24 Oct 2010 03:15:16 -0400
From: Killian O'Brien <admin@pri-de.org>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 03:15:13 -0400
Thread-Topic: [permaculture] official certification
Thread-Index: Acty/tUpQuSSRnp/QbClouiNqyKH5gAS7LGA
Message-ID: 
<7E471FF35774474AA10A2EEEF1CAB26A014A02640DC4@P1EC1EVS03.HMC1.COMCAST.NET>
References: <2040.52127.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
        <137ABD7A-2F51-40DD-85A5-0C9389FE3983@patternliteracy.com>
        <AANLkTimRrWn=EHeGOjmTHf5J8uAMYhz5krXWFvyW_M-x@mail.gmail.com>
        <7567A81F-6A51-4847-8AF0-035BC1E6BE1D@patternliteracy.com>
In-Reply-To: <7567A81F-6A51-4847-8AF0-035BC1E6BE1D@patternliteracy.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
acceptlanguage: en-US
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 07:15:18 -0000

http://blog.paulpolak.com/?p=3D546

"Is there an inevitable political process by which turns radical innovation=
 into conventional wisdom and which gives birth to ossified institutions wh=
ose perverse effects can only be addressed by the next disruptive innovatio=
n?

I hope not.

I have devoted my life to fomenting a revolution in design and a revolution=
 in big business centered on serving the other 90% of the world's customers=
.

But I am increasingly concerned that we might only be successful in creatin=
g the next generation of ossified destructive institutions.

I can't get it out of my head that French revolution gave us Napoleon Bonap=
arte.

And the steam engine created the wage slavery of the industrial revolution =
at the same time it helped millions move out of poverty.

...Institutionalizing Disruptive Innovation

This is probably the most difficult thing to pull off I can think of. As ID=
E began to grow I did my best to instill a culture of ongoing innovation an=
d contrarian thinking into the institutional structure that was rapidly eme=
rging. I'm still not sure how to institutionalize disruptive innovation, bu=
t I know that it requires a decentralized leadership structure, and an ongo=
ing process of empowerment and out of the box thinking for all of the playe=
rs in the organization - the very same processes that poor people need to m=
aster to successfully move out of poverty."

On point, imo.

Cheers,

Killian O'Brien
PRI-De
admin@pri-de.org
(313) 647-4015

killiankob@yahoo.com
(760) 617-4693

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:permaculture-bounces@l=
ists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Toby Hemenway
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 6:08 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification

On Oct 23, 2010, paul wheaton wrote:

> Suppose you reach 30% of the PDC graduates and they trust you and do
> as you ask:  they stop calling themselves "certified permaculture designe=
rs".=20

I don't think that your hypothetical situation is likely occur enough to ju=
stify your "baby with bathwater" solution of just giving up on standards. O=
nly a few PDCs claim to create certified designers; Beeja's is the first me=
ntion of it I've seen in many, many PDC announcements, and only a small per=
centage of the grads I encounter think they are certified designers. So I d=
on't see a big cadre of phony certified designers out there wreaking havoc.=
 And the logic of the solution seems dreadful: SInce about 30% of all drive=
rs speed, let's give up on enforcing speeding laws, or raise the speed limi=
t to where no one can be convicted of speeding, since the law disadvantages=
 those who don't speed. I don't think so. Like Albert Brooks's character in=
 "Broadcast News" says, all the devil wants is for us to lower our standard=
s just a little bit.


> On Oct 23, 2010, Killian O'Brien wrote, about the Gaia University diploma=
 program
>=20
>> And, who will be able to afford this? If we simply repeat what has alway=
s been, we are not moving forward. By making permaculture about money and f=
ormal certificates, you are preventing/slowing its spread.

This is so disappointing, Killian. Sean offers a path to advanced certifica=
tion in permaculture, something thousands of people are clamoring for, and =
your reaction is to brand it as elitist, rather than rejoice at the emergen=
ce of yet another option. And since 55% of the US population has attended s=
ome college (US census), you're talking about a pretty enormous "elite."=20

Did you know that the certificate was created by Bill because it was the on=
ly way people in less-developed countries could get funding to take PDCs? I=
t was a solution to lack of money, not the problem. And still is. If you do=
n't think a certificate helps, then you don't have to get one. But a certif=
icate gives just enough credibility to a PDC to where people--participants,=
 parents, grantors, NGOs--will find ways to pay for it. And if money is sti=
ll a limit, I have yet to see someone who asked, who actually tried, be tur=
ned away from a PDC because they had too little. There are grants, scholars=
hips, work trades, loans, free courses, low-income courses, deferred paymen=
ts, payment plans, a whole host of solutions that show me that the "I can't=
 afford it" whine is just a cop out, more revealing of the person's negativ=
e attitudes about money and desire to blame others than about any real obst=
acle. Or as Larry Santoyo puts it, "Then let's just die."

By the way, Gaia U is working with the Permaculture Institute on the diplom=
a program. PI-USA folks have been talking to Andy Langford there for a whil=
e. There is a great deal of interconnection and conversation going on; the =
days of the Mollisonian lone wolves are drawing to close.

If anyone doesn't want to play in this process, then don't.  Do it however =
you want. But please don't tear down those who are trying to get permacultu=
re out to a larger audience: the mainstream, higher education, those outsid=
e our tiny countercultural elite. News flash: standards increase popularity=
 and appeal, not decrease. And in a culture that is all about money, free i=
s regarded as worthless, and money means value. My higher priced courses ge=
t far more students, and far more of the mainstream, than my inexpensive on=
es. Ironic, but a cultural truth.

You see, my fear is just the opposite of yours. I think permaculture is bei=
ng held back far more by the self-righteous, screw-the-man, those without d=
readlocks need not apply, money is evil attitudes of the old core of Pc pra=
ctitioners. Permaculture is largely regarded as too hippie and flakey to be=
 worth paying attention to. The vast majority of people, the ones doing the=
 real damage, are repulsed--or worse, amused--by those attitudes and will n=
ever take permaculture seriously until we stop our self-righteous insistenc=
e that everyone have our radical, minority politics before we work with the=
m. If we want to keep permaculture limited to our little elite, then let's =
not offer diplomas and let's only do cheap courses in an old barn. To talk =
to more people, you have to speak in their language, not force them to spea=
k yours. The true flag of the guerrilla is the color of the enemy.=20

Pardon my heat, Killian; it's not really all directed at you, but reflects =
my annoyance at what I see as the real limitation to permaculture's spread.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Read the public message archives here:
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives=
:
site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the brac=
kets)]
List Usage & Guidelines:
http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
Permaculture Mailing List Blog
http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com