permaculture

[Patrick <forgeadams@yahoo.com>]

http://ecolocalizer.com/2010/09/15/philadelphia-subway-trains-to-start-producing-electricity-from-braking/


      
>From k.skvorak@gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 09:37:08 2010
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From: kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
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Hi folks,

at the risk of flogging dead horses, or ideas as the case may be...

Scott recently wrote:  " Since this whole diatribe started because I
positively responded to the
Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in Permaculture."

well, i disagree with Scott (no surprise!)  i might just as well say that
these series of threads started because i wrote something about Scott's
effort, but that would also be as equally and grossly inaccurate, imho.

 "this whole diatribe"  goes on imo because it contains in it some deep and
important questions that are powerfully in the hearts and minds of the
people engaged in permaculture on this list.  Young people reach out,
sometimes with frustration, at what they might see as less than effective
work, decisions, words, or deeds of their elders.  It is their right and
duty in fact to ask hard questions, to pose challenging critiques, esp in a
realm like permaculture where so much of peoples higher aspirations are
involved, and so much seemingly at stake.

so, IMHO, i am not so much troubled by the impertinence, rudeness, or even
ignorance of the youth here. They are doing their job imo of keeping the old
timers awake, and alive to the new folks concerns and perspectives

I am very! discouraged tho by the "defensive" responses of the elders in the
movement.  I am also even more discouraged by what appears to be a
widespread tendency towards dismissiveness of legitimate, and real concerns
because they were "spoken" in a rude way.

God damn it to hell and a half!  I know all you old timers do not have
virgin ears when it comes to tough talk, so why the hell the thin skins?
hmmm?

and, the last of my two cents- I am STILL very personally concerned that
Scott (below) and others still refuse to publicly grasp the essence of my
original (and others too!) critique, and continue to falsely "spin" it into
something that it wasn't; a personal attack on scott, the soldiers, or
anyone else involved.  this constant refusal to accept what is my concern,
and the concern of many others judging by the threads generated,  is the
most troubling of all to me, and disturbs me much more than the rudeness of
the youth here!

Scott! for gosdsakes!  in all of this prolonged discussion, i never once
heard " sustained
attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your humanity.  I am ashamed of
my association with those in permaculture who stoop to personal attacks to
promote their own ideas and causes."

those threads that crossed over to personal attack were few and far between,
and I might remind you, were initiated by example by you and LL!!  who were
and have historically been the most extreme examples of such behaviour!
(btw, is "flaming, pants on fire hypocrite" a personal attack? :) )

and what are you trying to do in continuing to characterize (and dismiss)
real and legitimate concerns in this way? (with apparent and complete
historical revisionism)   and why?

sincerely,
and with respect,
and i mean that!
 kevin


Re:

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:58:50 -0600
From: "Scott Pittman" <scott@permaculture.org>


Since this whole diatribe started because I positively responded to the
Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in Permaculture.

A little background history:

In the sixties I helped organize cafes near Army and Airforce bases in order
to meet and talk with soldiers being trained to go to VietNam.  Many of
those soldiers became active against the war.  This was done under the
auspices of Students for a Democratic Society.  This organization was very
active in civil rights, anti-war activity, and working within urban slums.
During that period of my life I was also called a traitor to my race, a
communist, and a victim of liberalism.

Since I have been involved in permaculture I have worked around the world
for social and economic justice among every segment of those societies
including the military.  In Ecuador I gave a class to the Tiger Battalion as
well as other students to help them become self sufficient in food.

I don't apologize for any of the activities above, nor do I apologize for
the course I gave to the National Guard.  I do regret that those who I asked
to help me with this course, and there were many more than Toby Hemenway,
have had to deal with an incredible amount of rude, disrespectful, and
thoughtless attacks.  I would like to apologize to all who supported my
decision and that includes the 14 soldiers who we trained for the sustained
attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your humanity.  I am ashamed of
my association with those in permaculture who stoop to personal attacks to
promote their own ideas and causes.

I have trained over 2000 permaculture graduates in the past 25+ years and
they are currently working in Haiti, Africa, Europe, Asia, Taiwan, Japan,
China, India, and god knows where else to succor those in need, and to help
them realize social and economic justice.  I will continue to train and work
with anyone who in interested in the goals implicit in permaculture and that
includes permaculture ethics.

I am amused by those critics whose contribution to permaculture and the
world is measured in less than a decade and yet they are the ones with the
loudest voice and most intemperate behavior in somehow trying to establish
themselves as holier than thou. My grandmother used to say be aware that
while you are pointing your finger at someone else you have three of your
own fingers pointed at yourself.

This conservation has reached the pinnacle of its use to derive lessons, and
rhetorical points; it would seem that it is time to move on to more fertile
ground.  This is certainly my last comment on this thread.

Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org