Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - [permaculture] DIY cast iron

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Patrick <forgeadams@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture listserve <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] DIY cast iron
  • Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:43:24 -0700 (PDT)

http://boroughfurnace.com/news/

"We found these old radiators in the scrap iron pile at Clark’s. Now
we’ll smash them up, melt them in the Skilletron, and turn them into new
things…"




>From scott@permaculture.org Wed Sep 15 12:58:56 2010
Return-Path: <scott@permaculture.org>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
id E4BCA4C0C6; Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:58:56 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled
version=3.3.1
Received: from s424.sureserver.com (s424.sureserver.com [64.14.74.35])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495604C0F2
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:58:53 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (qmail 22274 invoked by uid 504); 15 Sep 2010 16:58:52 -0000
Received: from 97-119-131-190.albq.qwest.net (HELO ScottPC)
(scott@permaculture.org@97.119.131.190)
by s424.sureserver.com with ESMTPA; 15 Sep 2010 16:58:52 -0000
From: "Scott Pittman" <scott@permaculture.org>
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <mailman.1.1284485163.23216.permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
<4C8FC7B5.5050403@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <4C8FC7B5.5050403@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:58:50 -0600
Message-ID: <9A9264FC0B1548039B25B778E12E4173@ScottPC>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
thread-index: ActU27ubwdI+5hSxRWyQZ2W8zRUXRAAFrKug
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.1.7600.16543
Subject: Re: [permaculture] civility, respect and reputation
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:58:57 -0000

Since this whole diatribe started because I positively responded to the
Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in Permaculture.

A little background history:

In the sixties I helped organize cafes near Army and Airforce bases in order
to meet and talk with soldiers being trained to go to VietNam. Many of
those soldiers became active against the war. This was done under the
auspices of Students for a Democratic Society. This organization was very
active in civil rights, anti-war activity, and working within urban slums.
During that period of my life I was also called a traitor to my race, a
communist, and a victim of liberalism.

Since I have been involved in permaculture I have worked around the world
for social and economic justice among every segment of those societies
including the military. In Ecuador I gave a class to the Tiger Battalion as
well as other students to help them become self sufficient in food.

I don't apologize for any of the activities above, nor do I apologize for
the course I gave to the National Guard. I do regret that those who I asked
to help me with this course, and there were many more than Toby Hemenway,
have had to deal with an incredible amount of rude, disrespectful, and
thoughtless attacks. I would like to apologize to all who supported my
decision and that includes the 14 soldiers who we trained for the sustained
attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your humanity. I am ashamed of
my association with those in permaculture who stoop to personal attacks to
promote their own ideas and causes.

I have trained over 2000 permaculture graduates in the past 25+ years and
they are currently working in Haiti, Africa, Europe, Asia, Taiwan, Japan,
China, India, and god knows where else to succor those in need, and to help
them realize social and economic justice. I will continue to train and work
with anyone who in interested in the goals implicit in permaculture and that
includes permaculture ethics.

I am amused by those critics whose contribution to permaculture and the
world is measured in less than a decade and yet they are the ones with the
loudest voice and most intemperate behavior in somehow trying to establish
themselves as holier than thou. My grandmother used to say be aware that
while you are pointing your finger at someone else you have three of your
own fingers pointed at yourself.

This conservation has reached the pinnacle of its use to derive lessons, and
rhetorical points; it would seem that it is time to move on to more fertile
ground. This is certainly my last comment on this thread.

Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Smith Mill Creek [mailto:smithmillcreek@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 1:06 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] civility, respect and reputation



Nicholas- This is a sad attack. * Sad, because it's mean. * Sad, because
Toby's respect is earned-- for his courses nationally (of which I've
taken one) * Sad, because Toby is generous enough to hang out on this
list & share his experiences and his leadership (and has jokingly
referred to himself as a curmudgeon) * Sad, because it starts this cycle
of attack and defend that erodes email lists. * Sad, because being a
permaculture teacher in the US often means low pay and putting up with
snarky remarks * Sad, because the when you talk/write in this way, the
more you look like a fool * Sad, because it attempts to laud some
permaculture teachers, and attack others * Sad, because permaculture
draws so many anti-authoritarian types who have trouble with community
(and our esteemed senior founder in Australia may have something to do
with that) I may or may not agree with whether permaculture should be
taught to military or peace corps personnel, but this style is
unproductive-- and frustrating. I don't know what it takes to be
suspended from this list-- all too often it seems to be for the wrong
reasons. On a brighter note, it is good to see so many permaculture
convergences this year, and so many of them sold out; and to see the
Transition movement spreading. -- Jim PS- A key task of those who live
in the Global North is to help us rethink our consumption patterns &
lifestyle. Toby has done this well, and so have many others.
********************************************************* Message: 4
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:22:21 -0700 From: "Nicholas Roberts,
Permaculture.coop" <permaculturecoop@gmail.com> To:
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org Toby, many look to you for leadership and
guidance and I therefore its an uncomfortable duty to challenge that
authority I am profoundly ignorant of what you do, yes, and all I have
to go on is your writings, which I imagine is representative of your
work ? I have absolutely no doubt your technical work is first class,
your home gardening book is excellent but your political economy has
none of the depth or subtlety of Mollison ("permaculture is more than a
gardening system") or any of the grassroots activists I have met doing
permaculture or involved in other activism that I have filmed or
aggregated as far as I can tell you are not engaging any of the powerful
lobbies like rural conservatives or agricultural movements like Doherty
is doing with RegenAG http://permaculture.tv/?s=regenag you are not
doing extreme permaculture in disaster or war zones like Uganda or Aceh
like Steve Cran http://permaculture.tv/?s=steve+cran you are not engaged
in international and interfaith public diplomacy like Geoff Lawton in
Jordan, Palestine and the Middle East you are not building international
activist and grassroots networks like Tony Andersen of Klimaforum
http://permaculture.tv/?s=tony+andersen engaging royalty or dispossed
farmers like Ali Shariff in the Amazon or Africa
http://permaculture.tv/?s=ali+sharif young grassroots activists with a
serious political economy
http://permaculture.tv/liberation-permaculture-design-course/ instead,
you have a new age flat earth political economy like Holmgren or Rob
Hopkins, you live in a green ghetto in the heart of Empire and you
confuse your own general comfort and affluence with the general state of
your own country men and woman and more generally the very real
desperation and increasing anger in the world. The Tea Party in the USA
(and globally such as India) and the rise of other ultra-right polpulist
and crypto fascism is driven by this liberal disengagement. In India
there is more political and economic activism
http://permaculture.tv/freedom-ahead/ The general level of awareness,
especially amongst the so-called elite in the USA, the understanding of
political economy is retarded, or is it you just dont care ? in
Australia a renaissance in permaculture in the mainstream with a
sophistication and organisation http://permaculture.tv/?s=apc10 that
hopefully will one day come to the USA (I was going to say America, but
I think the El Salvadorian farmer-to-farmer teaching model is far more
sophisticated politically and culturally
http://permaculture.tv/tag/el-salvador/ ) fortunately permaculture has
been an international peace movement from the beginning and I think it
will survive despite the implicit imperialism in some of permaculture
and transition's big name "leaders"

> > "Let's not talk to each other like this" - Right on and
> > Amen.....Please/Thanks
> >
> > Toby, you are so right on in what you say and, from personal experience
I
> > can say, even more right on in what you do and the
incredibly-appreciated
> > multiple places and ways and audiences where you do it. I'm glad that
you
> > seem to have a ducks back for this to roll off of and a tough enough
skin
> > with which to blunt the arrows. Bless you for what you do, for all that
you
> > teach, and all that we learn from you.
> >
> > I am going to try to avoid reading any more on this thread. It is
souring
> > me
> > on the whole, mostly interesting/civil listserve. The shame of it to me
is
> > that the core of Nicholas' message is right on - one at a time,
individuals
> > trained and converted can influence organizations over time, etc. The
core
> > is right on - but the 1st paragraph and last sentence are off-topic,
> > inappropriate, very un-necessary, and detract from the message and the
> > communication.
> >
> > Let's do stop talking like this to each other, please. Perhaps it is
time
> > for some moderating/editing/ rejecting on the part of the listserve
> > moderators or the listserve participants at large.
> >
> > Dick Pierce
> > On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Toby
Hemenway<toby@patternliteracy.comwrote:
>> > > Nicholas,
>> > >
>> > > You are profoundly ignorant of where and how I work (I'm on the
Blackfeet
>> > > Reservation at the moment) and your angry assumptions don' help
anything.
>> > > Let's not talk to each other like this.
>> > >
>> > > Toby
>> > > http://patternliteracy.com







Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page