permaculture

[Woody Wodraska <wodraska@mac.com>]

Lawrence this is in no way current, lots of stuff on the web regarding  
the split up of SSE with their new head Amy Goldman.
it is definitely worth knowing about these things as the seeds and  
humus are at their farthest point from being liberated now.
Barbara and Woody
Woody Wodraska
wodraska@mac.com
http://www.soulmedicinejourney.com
    Deep Gardening: Soul Lessons from 17 Gardens, Biodynamic  
Memories  now available at http://www.trafford.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000138866



On Aug 11, 2010, at 6:33 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. For the Liberation of Seeds and Humus by Kent Whealy
>      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   2. I was interviewed on national radio today (paul wheaton)
>   3. Re: ethics and the First Earth Batallion (wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk)
>   4. on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
>      (Nicholas Roberts, Permaculture.coop)
>   5. Re: on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
>      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   6. Re: on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
>      (Cory Brennan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:14:58 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] For the Liberation of Seeds and Humus by Kent
>         Whealy
> Message-ID: <4C61DD72.9020203@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>
> from - http://www.primalseeds.org/rescuingcrops.htm
> <http://www.primalseeds.org/OTHERSTUFF/new/rescuingcrops.htm>
>
> For the Liberation of Seeds and Humus
> By Kent Whealy , director of the Seed Savers Exchange.
>
> We live in a beautiful area on the Iowa-Minnesota border. We are in  
> the
> heads of valleys as they start to drain toward the Mississippi  
> River. It
> is called the "driftless area." The glaciers split and flowed around  
> it
> so they didn't grind everything flat as they did the rest of Iowa.
>
> My wife's great grandparents came from Bavaria in the 1870s and  
> settled
> in the area around St. Lucas, Iowa. My wife's grandfather would tell  
> me
> stories about when they were courting. Her father was very stern and
> would really give her trouble if she came home in the horse-drawn  
> sleigh
> and would sit too long outside. He could always tell the next morning
> how long they had been sitting there by the pile of frozen horse  
> manure.
> Grandma and Grandpa Ott had a good life: They had nine children; he
> farmed with his father; they cleared 40 acres with World War I  
> dynamite;
> he ran a sawmill; drove a cream route; he was a homestyle vet.  
> Although
> it was a hard life, it was a really full life.
>
> I met Grandma and Grandpa Ott 57 years after their marriage. Grandpa  
> had
> leukemia but wanted to live out his days on the farm so we went back  
> to
> make sure that happened. He was an incredible story teller--the
> orneriest old man I think I ever met.
>
> My wife was carrying our first child when we first were back, so I  
> asked
> him what it was like when they had kids. Grandpa told us a story about
> the old German midwives who would come by. I repeated the story to  
> some
> folks the next day and one fellow just laughed at me and said, "You go
> back and ask that old man again." He said the story around here is  
> that
> Grandpa would always tell Grandma he called the doctor, but he  
> wouldn't
> and by the time she found out it was too late and he would deliver the
> baby himself and save the money. So the next time I saw him I said, "I
> heard you delivered all your kids yourself." "It's just like pulling a
> calf," he replied, "But you know, the twins fooled me."
>
> These folks were really different than you or I. They worked harder  
> than
> we can probably imagine; they were the farm folks who built this
> country. They were just as tough as nails. I've seen this old man  
> sit in
> his rocking chair and sew up a cut on his own hand with needle and
> thread. Yet it always surprised me, rough as he was, he just loved  
> flowers.
>
> During the year we stayed with him he gave us the seeds of a couple
> garden varieties his parents had brought over from Bavaria. One of  
> these
> was a little purple morning glory that has a red star in its throat.  
> He
> also gave us seeds of a huge pink German tomato. We've grown this up  
> to
> nine inches across. The German folks use it as a slicing tomato.
>
> Diane's grandfather didn't make it through that winter. We knew if his
> seeds were to survive it was up to us. About that time we came across
> the writings of several geneticists who were trying to warn the public
> about the dangers that we were going to face if we continued to let  
> the
> breeding material for the food crops of the future die out at such a
> rapid rate. Dr. Garrison Wilkes, professor of biology at the  
> University
> of Massachusetts, wrote:
>
> The reason for alarm and concern about the loss of native strains is  
> the
> irreplaceable nature of the genetic wealth. The only place genes can  
> be
> stored is in living systems; either living branches such as the  
> budwood
> of apple trees or in the living embryos of grain and vegetable seeds.
> The native varieties become extinct once they are dropped in favor of
> introduced seed. That extinction can take place in a single year if  
> the
> seeds are cooked and eaten instead of saved for seed stock. Quite
> literally, the genetic heritage of a millennium in a particular valley
> can disappear in a single bowl of porridge.
> Dr. Jack Harlan, retired professor of plant genetics, University of
> Illinois, concurred:
> These resources stand between us and catastrophic starvation on a  
> scale
> we can not imagine. In a very real sense, the future of the human race
> rides on these materials. The line between abundance and disaster is
> becoming thinner and the public is unaware and unconcerned. Must we  
> wait
> for disaster to be real before we are heard? Will people listen only
> after it is too late?
> We were lucky to come across these writings when we were young and
> idealistic and wondering how we could make a difference in this world.
> We decided to see if we could find other people who were also keeping
> heirloom seeds. We found there is an tremendous heritage of this  
> type of
> material in this country; that whenever farmers or gardeners  
> immigrated
> they invariably brought the best of their seeds with them. It was a  
> link
> with the old country and allowed them to enjoy the foods they knew  
> well.
>
> There are some areas very rich in these materials; usually its really
> "backwoods" areas; especially mountainous areas, "poverty pockets" if
> you will, where people don't really have the money to buy seeds. These
> can be real treasure-troves of heirloom varieties. We've found  
> isolation
> can be religious as well. Traditional people such as Mennonites, Amish
> and Hutterites are also keeping quite a few heirloom varieties within
> their communities. I've also been pleased that as trust has grown in
> Seed Savers, a lot of Native American people are starting to offer  
> their
> seeds through the exchange. This has been really gratifying to me.  
> Many
> Native Americans don't share their seeds because they believe they are
> sacred--as well they should because seeds are the sparks of life that
> feed us all.
>
> What Diane and I have done these past 21 years is to put together a
> network of some 8000 people who are now working to collect, maintain  
> and
> distribute heirloom varieties. In 1986 Seed Savers purchased a farm  
> near
> Decorah, Iowa. The collection of seeds we have now is sort of out of
> control. We have 17,000 varieties right now including over 4000
> tomatoes, 700 peas, 700 lettuce, 120 watermelons, 600 potatoes....It  
> is
> getting to the point where we have already seen almost everything  
> coming
> into the collection from North America. We regrow about 2000  
> varieities
> a year for their seeds. Last summer we grew out our entire lettuce
> collection; four heads of each variety. We photographed each one so we
> would know what we have in the collection.
>
> Most gardeners in this country don't have a clue as to what their true
> heritage as gardeners really is; most have never seen this type of
> diversity and when we bring people into our garden and show them 2000
> plant varieties and tell them it is because of gardeners just like
> themselves that all this material is still available then they really
> understand the problem and are willing to help.
>
> In the past five years we've been doing quite a bit of collecting in
> Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. When that material started
> flowing into the collection it was so different it was just amazing.
> Some of the tomato varieties have foliage that looks like a carrot. We
> have been getting into quite a few tomato varieties from Russia that  
> are
> black. They have an enzyme under their skins that turns darker and
> darker with the sun and the heat.
>
> We are keeping a large selection of garlics from Eastern Europe. The
> collection in Georgia has just been flattened by civil war.
> Nationalistic fighting is really taking a toll. For instance, the
> international potato collection in Peru had to be evacuated in small
> aircraft because Shining Path guerrillas were knocking off their  
> staff.
>
> We had a fellow from Azerbaijan over. He worked for the Institute of
> Genetics and Selection in Baku. He and other scientists had collected
> all over Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is in the Caucuses south of Russia. It
> is an incredibly rich country; it runs from 14,000 feet elevation on  
> the
> west to sea level on the east; the whole country is in this monstrous
> mountain valley. The micro climates through it all would be the
> equivalent of southern Minnesota to northern Florida. It is so
> genetically rich it is just incredible. After they collected all over
> the country the scientists made the mistake of storing the material in
> an agricultural institute in Nagorno-Karabakh, an Armenian enclave
> engulfed in vicious fighting since 1991. The Armenians first used the
> agriculture station for their troop headquarters and before the  
> Russians
> ran them out, they cut down the orchard collection so the Russians
> wouldn't have it for food. Then the Russians occupied the station and
> all of the collection has been lost.
>
> We are going to see more of this kind of thing in the years ahead. Who
> knows what will be left of the genetic resources of the former
> Yugoslavia when all the fighting is done? While we see the televised
> carnage on the evening news, what we don't see is the silent erosion  
> of
> the genetic material that is taking place in the background. These are
> varieties that might have helped save the world from famine.
>
> N.I. Vavilov was probably the greatest plant collector the world has
> ever known. He started his first collecting expeditions in 1908 and
> before the second world war he had personally collected 165,000 seed
> varieties. Vavilov taught there were "genetic homelands" for different
> crops. Vavilov was one of the first ethno-botanists. He wasn't  
> concerned
> with just the seed; he also cared about the cultural context.
>
> Vavilov was imprisoned right before World War II. He had come into
> conflict with Stalin over the flawed genetics of a pseudo-botanist  
> named
> Lysenko.
>
> During the 900 day siege of Leningrad 600,000 Russians died. People  
> were
> reduced to eating rats and glue from furniture joints and wall paper;
> whatever they could find. During this time 14 scientists of the  
> Vavilov
> Institute died of starvation at their desks rather than eat any of the
> tons of edible seed stored around them. They didn't think they had the
> right to deprive the future of the genetic resources.
>
> Seed Savers is funding collecting expeditions involving the scientists
> at the Vavilov Institute. While Seed Savers has been very successful  
> in
> North America collecting heirlooms from a fragmented ethnic patchwork
> surrounded by mechanized agriculture, there are areas of the world  
> much,
> much richer genetically. I started going to Russia in 1991 and I've  
> made
> nine trips to Eastern Europe since then. The extent of genetic  
> resources
> that still remains in the former Soviet bloc is pretty well  
> dependent on
> the extent of Stalin's collectivization efforts. In 1928 he began to
> sweep the Soviet Union clean of peasants and landowners. He starved
> millions to death in the Ukraine and shipped millions of others,  
> mostly
> farmers, to Siberia and let them die of starvation there. After he  
> swept
> the countryside clean he put huge collective farms in place; 50,000
> acres; whole villages farmed them.
>
> But there were places too rough for collective farms. In Romania only
> half the farms were collectivized; in Poland only a quarter. In the
> unaffected areas traditional agriculture goes back to the very  
> beginning
> with all seeds still being produced by gardeners and farmers. When you
> have the type of situation with a really wet mountainous climate with
> thousands of microclimates, the genetic diversity is just dazzling.  
> But
> what is happening right now is that agriculture technology is flooding
> into these areas, along with American, Japanese and Dutch seeds. The
> diversity is going to be gone so quickly it will be unbelievable.
>
> We funded a woman who is head of the vegetable department at a Polish
> university. She was wonderful. For $1500 she collected for 30 days in
> the southern mountains, on the north side of the Carpathians. I know  
> she
> was just living in her car and eating sausage. She would go into  
> remote
> mountain villages and say, "I want you to introduce me to the old  
> woman
> who still supplies you with the old seeds." Invariably she'd find some
> elderly woman who had huge collections of vegetable and flower seed.  
> But
> even in 1993 she was running into salesmen from Cargill selling rye  
> and
> other agriculture seeds door-to-door in the most isolated places.
>
> This last May we carried in about $20,000 in hundred dollar bills to
> fund three different collecting expeditions: the area around the Aural
> Sea, the Volga Valley and in Ukraine against the backside of the
> Carpathians.
>
> Right now is a real critical time for all this material, whether you  
> are
> talking about heirloom varieties in the U.S. with older people on the
> farms still maintaining seeds and all of the young people having moved
> to the cities; or whether you are talking about half way around the
> world where this material is going to be lost so quickly. This is all
> the material we are ever going to have to breed food crops for the
> future. Think of this as an evolutionary race with the plants in one
> lane and pests and diseases in another. When we dose the plants with
> massive amounts of pesticides we breed pesticide-resistant pests. We  
> are
> going to need all the genetic resources we can possibly muster to
> overcome what we are going to face in the future. We really believe we
> are stewards of an incredible heritage and its going to be  
> disastrous if
> all this material dies out in the next decade or so mainly because of
> short term economic considerations. We would really be pleased if  
> any of
> you would like to join us to keep this material available.
>
> Kent Whealy is the director of Seed Savers Exchange, a grassroots
> network of over 7000 gardeners, farmers, orchardists and plant
> collectors who maintain and distribute endangered vegetable and fruit
> varieties. Kent has spent eight years developing Heritage Farm, an
> educational facility near Decorah, Iowa that maintains and displays
> extensive collections of heirloom vegetables, apples, hardy grapes and
> rare live- stock. SSE's genetic preservation projects are the model  
> for
> similar projects and organizations in more than 30 countries. This
> article is taken from his keynote address at the Tilth Producers  
> Annual
> Conference last November. Seed Savers Exchange, 3076 North Winn Road;
> Decorah, Iowa 52101.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:20:55 -0600
> From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] I was interviewed on national radio today
> Message-ID:
>         <AANLkTi=jjiPakBeVQ00cVuSG8_DeCQ1msA7CymogtHYd@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> part of a program about sustainable agriculture
>
> http://attra.ncat.org/audio/radio.php#8_10_10
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 04:19:43 +0000 (GMT)
> From: "wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk" <wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] ethics and the First Earth Batallion
> Message-ID: <506005.66174.qm@web25405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Just a quick thanks to all the listers in this thread who have  
> turned me on to Lt Col Jim Channon and the First Earth Battalion.   
> Although the section about Earthworks in his field manual was quite  
> short, the rest of the book was still fascinating.  I am surprised  
> more permies have not mentioned his name to me before.  Certainly  
> the biggest thinker that I have come across since I first discovered  
> Bucky Fuller when I was a teen.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:18:36 -0700
> From: "Nicholas Roberts, Permaculture.coop"
>         <permaculturecoop@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US
>         military)
> Message-ID:
>         <AANLkTikvZD052rK_5J_+xs9y8zJLGOqyxpa08U1zB8Se@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> you might want to ask permaculture activist Joshua Fattal who has been
> arrested by the Iranian government and accused of espionage whether it
> would help him or others like him that "permaculture" is now
> celebrated as a US army reserve "hearts and minds"
> counterinsurgency/sustainment technique
>
>
> > ? 1. Re: on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
> > ? ? ?(Toby Hemenway)
>
> > > my concern is that you and geoff and others that are working with  
> > > violent
> > > non-PC instituions like the US military, might be "shitting" in the
> > > downstream social-ecology of other permies.
>
>
> as to whether the US military using "permaculture" and how that might
> effect the social ecology for grassroots permaculture activists around
> the world
>
> "Josh was an old friend from the States who was just joining them in
> the Middle East, and has been described as someone who is ?deeply
> committed to issues of ecology and truly democratic politics,?
> including ?issues such as sustainable agriculture, food justice, and
> permaculture.?
> http://www.counterpunch.org/amster05252010.html
>
>
> as to the ethical question, its impossible for the Fair Share or
> People Care ethic of permaculture to be fully satisfied by a military
> industrial sustainability complex.
>
> there is a big difference between permaculture fair share/people care
> sustainability and a security state sustainment
>
> the Marshall Plan was not the perfect military-industrial solution to
> reconstruction of Europe, but it has set the model for sustainment...
> first you destroy it, then you rebuild it with more perfect control...
> the supply of logistics, infrastructure, engineering and materials is
> sustainment.. via corporates and the army engineers
>
>
> maybe also search for Human Terrain System and compare to US army
> reserve permaculture
>
> The Human Terrain System (HTS) was established to assists Army Brigade
> and Marine Corps Regiment Commanders and their staffs in Iraq and
> Afghanistan better understand local cultures and social structures to
> improve their units' operational effectiveness. This is sometimes
> referred to as 'Human Terrain Mapping' (HTM).[1] The HTS utilizes
> personnel with BAs, MAs, and PhDs in a social science including
> (anthropology, sociology, political science, geography), regional
> studies, and lingustics. HTS provides military commanders and staff
> with an understanding of the local population by conducting
> participant observation and interviews. That information is
> interpreted and archived in various cultural information and knowledge
> databases.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Terrain_System
>
> The Network of Concerned Anthropologists (NCA) is an independent ad
> hoc network of anthropologists seeking to promote an ethical
> anthropology.
> http://sites.google.com/site/concernedanthropologists/
>
> having said all this, Steve Cran (x AUS army), of Global
> Sustainability Corps, does extreme permaculture in war/disaster zones
> Timor, Uganda, Aceh working with former-combatants
> http://globalsustainabilitycorps.org - have been suggesting he come to
> the states and work with veterans and maybe the mil
>
>
> its interesting to read the sustainment documents below and look at
> the history of this kind of humanitarian imperialism .. also if you
> read the book The Men Who Stare At Goats, it gives a disturbing take
> on the original idealism of bringing the New Age to the US mil...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Earth_Battalion
>
> They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into
> pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will
> they train for war anymore. ? Isaiah 2:4 & Micah 4:3
>
>
>
>
> from the US Military Doctrine*
>
> Democratic Sustainment document
> http://www.disam.dsca.mil/pubs/v.22_1/Ramsey.pdf
>
> USA Counterinsurgency Doctrine
> http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf
>
> Sustainment document
> http://www.tradoc.army.mil/PAO/viwebpage/Pam%20hq%20pdfs/FM%204_0%20single%20pg%20hq.pdf
>
>
>
>
> i've written a bit about this in the past
>
> Climate War: Apocalypse, Sustainment and Liberation
> http://gaiapermaculture.com/projects/climatewar/blog/2009/06/09/climate-war-apocalypse-sustainment-and-liberation/
>
> Climate War: just as the Cold War subsumed and defined the peace  
> after World
> War 2, the Climate War subsumes and defines the period after the  
> Cold War.
> The Cold War ideology on the US side was anti-communism. The Climate  
> War
> ideology (shared by most central governments) is anti- 
> environmentalism, with
> communists being replaced with terrorists and increasingly eco- 
> terrorists.
> Green is the new red, the FBI?s most wanted is an eco-terrorist.
> Insurgencies have always been embedded in a place, and so, in  
> reality, all
> terrorists are fighting for rights to control an environment. The  
> Climate
> War is the Cold War within the context of climate change, peak oil,  
> peak
> debt, indeed peak everything. The US framework for managing the world,
> within the context of Climate War, is Sustainment.
>
> Sustainment: sustainment is an extension of the military term  
> describing the
> supply and operations of maintenance to military operations.  
> Sustainment is
> military-industrial supplied sustainability.
>
> In the latest US
> Counter-Insurgency military doctrine, Sustainment leads all
> counter-insurgency operations. Within the Human Terrain System,  
> hearts and
> minds are won by the the supply of infrastructure and utilities.  
> Sustainment
> leads operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the ?civilian surge? is
> sustainment. With the increasing instability of the climate system,  
> the
> global economic and geo-political system, sustainment will be  
> supplied with
> the strongest aspect of US national power; the military industrial  
> complex.
> Within the neo-liberal environment, the military-industrial compex is
> increasingly privatised and fragmented.
>
> As Noam Klein describes in Shock
> Doctrine, disaster capitalism profits greatly from crisis, real or  
> imagined,
> and as the Climate War becomes the dominant organising principle for  
> the
> planet, through real and imagined crisis, sustainment supplied by
> corporate-state military industrial system. This military industrial  
> system
> will seek to profit and expand from both the crisis of conflict, of
> destruction of war and the maintenance of peace, and the rebuilding of
> damaged systems.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 03:12:53 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US
>         military)
> Message-ID: <4C624D75.9000108@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 8/11/2010 2:18 AM, Nicholas Roberts, Permaculture.coop wrote:
> > you might want to ask permaculture activist Joshua Fattal who has  
> > been
> > arrested by the Iranian government and accused of espionage whether  
> > it
> > would help him or others like him that "permaculture" is now
> > celebrated as a US army reserve "hearts and minds"
> > counterinsurgency/sustainment technique
>
> Between a rock and a hard place kind of issue, eh?
> Much better that permaculture is used and promoted by the military.
> Its not the US military's fault but the Iranian government's.
> For them to not use permaculture as a tool would be a win for the  
> Iranians.
>
> > "Josh was an old friend from the States who was just joining them in
> > the Middle East, and has been described as someone who is ?deeply
> > committed to issues of ecology and truly democratic politics,?
> > including ?issues such as sustainable agriculture, food justice, and
> > permaculture.?
> > http://www.counterpunch.org/amster05252010.html
>
> It is not the US' fault that Josh got caught by the Iranian fools. He
> should not have let himself get into a vulnerable position or play a
> Jesus Christ role to make his point; his fault entirely. That  
> applies to
> anyone in any country.
>
> > as to the ethical question, its impossible for the Fair Share or
> > People Care ethic of permaculture to be fully satisfied by a military
> > industrial sustainability complex.
>
> That's totally politically correct ranting to hear yourself speak  
> and is
> completely untrue. See my comment above. Better that they not use and
> promote PC at all eh? Ridiculous. You're just not thinking.
>
> > there is a big difference between permaculture fair share/people care
> > sustainability and a security state sustainment
>
> There's nothing new about that and is all the more reason for the
> military to use and promote permaculture as a tool for reaching
> and connecting with the indigenous populations in the countries where
> they are engaged militarily. The terrorist elements, like the morons  
> in
> Iran, would love for us to back off such a strategy.
>
> > the Marshall Plan was not the perfect military-industrial solution to
> > reconstruction of Europe, but it has set the model for sustainment...
> > first you destroy it, then you rebuild it with more perfect  
> > control...
> > the supply of logistics, infrastructure, engineering and materials is
> > sustainment.. via corporates and the army engineers
>
> Maybe you'd like to explain that in full with accurate references.
> Again, I think you're ranting to hear yourself speak as your comments
> don't seem to add much to the discussion.
>
> > maybe also search for Human Terrain System and compare to US army
> > reserve permaculture
>
> "  
> HTS is a new proof-of-concept program, run by the U.S. Army Training  
> and
> Doctrine Command (TRADOC), and serving the joint community. The
> near-term focus of the HTS program is to improve the military?s  
> ability
> to understand the highly complex local socio-cultural environment in  
> the
> areas where they are deployed; however, in the long-term, HTS hopes to
> assist the US government in understanding foreign countries and  
> regions
> prior to an engagement within that region.
>
>     * HTS was developed in response to identified gaps in commanders?
> and staffs? understanding of the local population and culture, and its
> impact on operational decisions; and poor transfer of specific
> socio-cultural knowledge to follow-on units.
>     * The HTS approach is to place the expertise and experience of
> social scientists and regional experts, coupled with reach-back,
> open-source research, directly in support of deployed units engaging  
> in
> full-spectrum operations.
>     * HTS informs decision making at the tactical, operational and
> strategic levels.
>     * The HTS program is the first time that social science research
> and advising has been done systematically, on a large scale, and at  
> the
> brigade level.
> "
>
> I don't see anything wrong with this. I suppose you'd prefer they not
> use PC or HTS at all?
>
> > The Human Terrain System (HTS) was established to assists Army  
> > Brigade
> > and Marine Corps Regiment Commanders and their staffs in Iraq and
> > Afghanistan better understand local cultures and social structures to
> > improve their units' operational effectiveness. This is sometimes
> > referred to as 'Human Terrain Mapping' (HTM).[1] The HTS utilizes
> > personnel with BAs, MAs, and PhDs in a social science including
> > (anthropology, sociology, political science, geography), regional
> > studies, and lingustics. HTS provides military commanders and staff
> > with an understanding of the local population by conducting
> > participant observation and interviews. That information is
> > interpreted and archived in various cultural information and  
> > knowledge
> > databases.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Terrain_System
> >
> > The Network of Concerned Anthropologists (NCA) is an independent ad
> > hoc network of anthropologists seeking to promote an ethical
> > anthropology.
> > http://sites.google.com/site/concernedanthropologists/
> >
> > having said all this, Steve Cran (x AUS army), of Global
> > Sustainability Corps, does extreme permaculture in war/disaster zones
> > Timor, Uganda, Aceh working with former-combatants
> > http://globalsustainabilitycorps.org - have been suggesting he come  
> > to
> > the states and work with veterans and maybe the mil
>
> http://globalsustainabilitycorps.org/
>
> > its interesting to read the sustainment documents below and look at
> > the history of this kind of humanitarian imperialism .. also if you
>
> Ridiculous statement, "humanitarian imperialism"; you sound like a
> narrow minded anti establishment weenie with his mind conveniently all
> made up with 100% anti-military bias. Maybe you need to break out of
> that mold. I've known people like that and they never do anything  
> where
> he rubber meets the road, little more than puff more hot air and  
> whine.
>
> > read the book The Men Who Stare At Goats, it gives a disturbing take
> > on the original idealism of bringing the New Age to the US mil...
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Earth_Battalion
> >
> > They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into
> > pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will
> > they train for war anymore. ? Isaiah 2:4&  Micah 4:3
>
> > from the US Military Doctrine*
> >
> > Democratic Sustainment document
> > http://www.disam.dsca.mil/pubs/v.22_1/Ramsey.pdf
> >
> > USA Counterinsurgency Doctrine
> > http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf
> >
> > Sustainment document
> > http://www.tradoc.army.mil/PAO/viwebpage/Pam%20hq%20pdfs/FM%204_0%20single%20pg%20hq.pdf
>
> > i've written a bit about this in the past
> >
> > Climate War: Apocalypse, Sustainment and Liberation
> > http://gaiapermaculture.com/projects/climatewar/blog/2009/06/09/climate-war-apocalypse-sustainment-and-liberation/
> >
> > Climate War: just as the Cold War subsumed and defined the peace  
> > after World
> > War 2, the Climate War subsumes and defines the period after the  
> > Cold War.
> > The Cold War ideology on the US side was anti-communism. The  
> > Climate War
> > ideology (shared by most central governments) is anti- 
> > environmentalism, with
> > communists being replaced with terrorists and increasingly eco- 
> > terrorists.
> > Green is the new red, the FBI?s most wanted is an eco-terrorist.
> > Insurgencies have always been embedded in a place, and so, in  
> > reality, all
> > terrorists are fighting for rights to control an environment. The  
> > Climate
> > War is the Cold War within the context of climate change, peak oil,  
> > peak
> > debt, indeed peak everything. The US framework for managing the  
> > world,
> > within the context of Climate War, is Sustainment.
> >
> > Sustainment: sustainment is an extension of the military term  
> > describing the
> > supply and operations of maintenance to military operations.  
> > Sustainment is
> > military-industrial supplied sustainability.
> >
> > In the latest US
> > Counter-Insurgency military doctrine, Sustainment leads all
> > counter-insurgency operations. Within the Human Terrain System,  
> > hearts and
> > minds are won by the the supply of infrastructure and utilities.  
> > Sustainment
> > leads operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the ?civilian surge? is
> > sustainment. With the increasing instability of the climate system,  
> > the
> > global economic and geo-political system, sustainment will be  
> > supplied with
> > the strongest aspect of US national power; the military industrial  
> > complex.
> > Within the neo-liberal environment, the military-industrial compex is
> > increasingly privatised and fragmented.
> >
> > As Noam Klein describes in Shock
> > Doctrine, disaster capitalism profits greatly from crisis, real or  
> > imagined,
> > and as the Climate War becomes the dominant organising principle  
> > for the
> > planet, through real and imagined crisis, sustainment supplied by
> > corporate-state military industrial system. This military  
> > industrial system
> > will seek to profit and expand from both the crisis of conflict, of
> > destruction of war and the maintenance of peace, and the rebuilding  
> > of
> > damaged systems.
>
> And so your proposal is to DO exactly what? as opposed to wallowing  
> for
> more years in comfy, smug, self-serving
> anti-war/imperialism/establishment/military rhetoric.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 06:33:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US
>         military)
> Message-ID: <787778.71595.qm@web52602.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> The thing that Nicholas and others are missing the boat on  
> completely is that permaculture, as a design science, TRANSFORMS  
> SYSTEMS.  Which means that if permaculture were truly applied to the  
> US military, it would transform it into something completely  
> different. It would no longer exist as it exists right now.
>
> Start slow and small is a principle of permaculture. Transforming  
> even one National Guardsman or US Army Corporal will create ripples  
> and connections that can start undermining the unsustainable aspects  
> of the system.
>
> It is IRRELEVENT to Josh's cause whether permaculture is used by the  
> army or not.  All he has to do is tell people that it is a design  
> science, that is apolitical, non-religious, and non-racist or  
> classist and can be applied by any group - to the degree that it is  
> applied, there will be LESS SUPPRESSION of those he is trying to help.
>
> If he can't get that across, then the people he is working with  
> DON"T UNDERSTAND PERMACULTURE.  So what the hell is he doing then?   
> He isn't doing anything with permaculture if the insurgents or  
> whoever don't understand that it transforms systems. If they get  
> hung up on the army using it, then they don't get it and wont'  
> benefit from it anyway so he may as well give up.
>
> Having worked in Haiti, Pine Ridge reservation, and South Central  
> Los Angeles, I have found that activists working against oppressive  
> systems have NO PROBLEM understanding how permaculture can benefit  
> them regardless of who uses it.  They do not get hung up or turn  
> against it because some establishment figure uses the word for some  
> reason.  Jesus, give these people a little credit for having some  
> intelligence, Nicholas.  How stupid do you think they are that YOU  
> have to protect them from misunderstanding the subject by denying  
> others opportunity to learn the science? Why do you feel you have  
> the right or authority to dictate personally who gets to have  
> permaculture and who doesn't?  Who are you to say who can benefit,  
> who should benefit, or where it will do the most good?
>
> Why don't you stick to getting it across to those you want to work  
> with, and let other grown adults and responsible people do what they  
> feel is right in their own hearts?  It is truly arrogant for you (or  
> anybody else) to second guess what a competent, experienced  
> permaculturist like Scott, Toby, et al, is doing or why.  It is  
> quite a condescending attitude, and neglect of the first principle  
> of permaculture which is OBSERVE THE SYSTEM.  Look at the results  
> before you jump to judgment of others.  That is basic people care -  
> your judgment of these men and what they are doing shows a lack of  
> understanding of people care, from my viewpoint.
>
> Best, Cory
>
> --- On Wed, 8/11/10, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net 
> > wrote:
>
> > From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US  
> > military)
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2010, 12:12 AM
> > On 8/11/2010 2:18 AM, Nicholas
> > Roberts, Permaculture.coop wrote:
> > > you might want to ask permaculture activist Joshua
> > Fattal who has been
> > > arrested by the Iranian government and accused of
> > espionage whether it
> > > would help him or others like him that "permaculture"
> > is now
> > > celebrated as a US army reserve "hearts and minds"
> > > counterinsurgency/sustainment technique
> >
> > Between a rock and a hard place kind of issue, eh?
> > Much better that permaculture is used and promoted by the
> > military.
> > Its not the US military's fault but the Iranian
> > government's.
> > For them to not use permaculture as a tool would be a win
> > for the Iranians.
> >
> > > "Josh was an old friend from the States who was just
> > joining them in
> > > the Middle East, and has been described as someone who
> > is ?deeply
> > > committed to issues of ecology and truly democratic
> > politics,?
> > > including ?issues such as sustainable agriculture,
> > food justice, and
> > > permaculture.?
> > > http://www.counterpunch.org/amster05252010.html
> >
> > It is not the US' fault that Josh got caught by the Iranian
> > fools. He should not have let himself get into a vulnerable
> > position or play a Jesus Christ role to make his point; his
> > fault entirely. That applies to anyone in any country.
> >
> > > as to the ethical question, its impossible for the
> > Fair Share or
> > > People Care ethic of permaculture to be fully
> > satisfied by a military
> > > industrial sustainability complex.
> >
> > That's totally politically correct ranting to hear yourself
> > speak and is
> > completely untrue. See my comment above. Better that they
> > not use and promote PC at all eh? Ridiculous. You're just
> > not thinking.
> >
> > > there is a big difference between permaculture fair
> > share/people care
> > > sustainability and a security state sustainment
> >
> > There's nothing new about that and is all the more reason
> > for the military to use and promote permaculture as a tool
> > for reaching
> > and connecting with the indigenous populations in the
> > countries where they are engaged militarily. The terrorist
> > elements, like the morons in Iran, would love for us to back
> > off such a strategy.
> >
> > > the Marshall Plan was not the perfect
> > military-industrial solution to
> > > reconstruction of Europe, but it has set the model for
> > sustainment...
> > > first you destroy it, then you rebuild it with more
> > perfect control...
> > > the supply of logistics, infrastructure, engineering
> > and materials is
> > > sustainment.. via corporates and the army engineers
> >
> > Maybe you'd like to explain that in full with accurate
> > references.
> > Again, I think you're ranting to hear yourself speak as
> > your comments don't seem to add much to the discussion.
> >
> > > maybe also search for Human Terrain System and compare
> > to US army
> > > reserve permaculture
> >
> > " ???
> > HTS is a new proof-of-concept program, run by the U.S. Army
> > Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC), and serving the
> > joint community. The near-term focus of the HTS program is
> > to improve the military?s ability to understand the highly
> > complex local socio-cultural environment in the areas where
> > they are deployed; however, in the long-term, HTS hopes to
> > assist the US government in understanding foreign countries
> > and regions prior to an engagement within that region.
> >
> > ? ? * HTS was developed in response to identified
> > gaps in commanders? and staffs? understanding of the
> > local population and culture, and its impact on operational
> > decisions; and poor transfer of specific socio-cultural
> > knowledge to follow-on units.
> > ? ? * The HTS approach is to place the expertise
> > and experience of social scientists and regional experts,
> > coupled with reach-back, open-source research, directly in
> > support of deployed units engaging in full-spectrum
> > operations.
> > ? ? * HTS informs decision making at the
> > tactical, operational and strategic levels.
> > ? ? * The HTS program is the first time that
> > social science research and advising has been done
> > systematically, on a large scale, and at the brigade level.
> > "
> >
> > I don't see anything wrong with this. I suppose you'd
> > prefer they not use PC or HTS at all?
> >
> > > The Human Terrain System (HTS) was established to
> > assists Army Brigade
> > > and Marine Corps Regiment Commanders and their staffs
> > in Iraq and
> > > Afghanistan better understand local cultures and
> > social structures to
> > > improve their units' operational effectiveness. This
> > is sometimes
> > > referred to as 'Human Terrain Mapping' (HTM).[1] The
> > HTS utilizes
> > > personnel with BAs, MAs, and PhDs in a social science
> > including
> > > (anthropology, sociology, political science,
> > geography), regional
> > > studies, and lingustics. HTS provides military
> > commanders and staff
> > > with an understanding of the local population by
> > conducting
> > > participant observation and interviews. That
> > information is
> > > interpreted and archived in various cultural
> > information and knowledge
> > > databases.
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Terrain_System
> > >
> > > The Network of Concerned Anthropologists (NCA) is an
> > independent ad
> > > hoc network of anthropologists seeking to promote an
> > ethical
> > > anthropology.
> > > http://sites.google.com/site/concernedanthropologists/
> > >
> > > having said all this, Steve Cran (x AUS army), of
> > Global
> > > Sustainability Corps, does extreme permaculture in
> > war/disaster zones
> > > Timor, Uganda, Aceh working with former-combatants
> > > http://globalsustainabilitycorps.org -
> > have been suggesting he come to
> > > the states and work with veterans and maybe the mil
> >
> > http://globalsustainabilitycorps.org/
> >
> > > its interesting to read the sustainment documents
> > below and look at
> > > the history of this kind of humanitarian imperialism
> > .. also if you
> >
> > Ridiculous statement, "humanitarian imperialism"; you sound
> > like a narrow minded anti establishment weenie with his mind
> > conveniently all made up with 100% anti-military bias. Maybe
> > you need to break out of that mold. I've known people like
> > that and they never do anything where he rubber meets the
> > road, little more than puff more hot air and whine.
> >
> > > read the book The Men Who Stare At Goats, it gives a
> > disturbing take
> > > on the original idealism of bringing the New Age to
> > the US mil...
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Earth_Battalion
> > >
> > > They will beat their swords into plowshares and their
> > spears into
> > > pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against
> > nation, nor will
> > > they train for war anymore. ? Isaiah 2:4&?
> > Micah 4:3
> >
> > > from the US Military Doctrine*
> > >
> > > Democratic Sustainment document
> > > http://www.disam.dsca.mil/pubs/v.22_1/Ramsey.pdf
> > >
> > > USA Counterinsurgency Doctrine
> > > http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf
> > >
> > > Sustainment document
> > > http://www.tradoc.army.mil/PAO/viwebpage/Pam%20hq%20pdfs/FM%204_0%20single%20pg%20hq.pdf
> >
> > > i've written a bit about this in the past
> > >
> > > Climate War: Apocalypse, Sustainment and Liberation
> > > http://gaiapermaculture.com/projects/climatewar/blog/2009/06/09/climate-war-apocalypse-sustainment-and-liberation/
> > >
> > > Climate War: just as the Cold War subsumed and defined
> > the peace after World
> > > War 2, the Climate War subsumes and defines the period
> > after the Cold War.
> > > The Cold War ideology on the US side was
> > anti-communism. The Climate War
> > > ideology (shared by most central governments) is
> > anti-environmentalism, with
> > > communists being replaced with terrorists and
> > increasingly eco-terrorists.
> > > Green is the new red, the FBI?s most wanted is an
> > eco-terrorist.
> > > Insurgencies have always been embedded in a place, and
> > so, in reality, all
> > > terrorists are fighting for rights to control an
> > environment. The Climate
> > > War is the Cold War within the context of climate
> > change, peak oil, peak
> > > debt, indeed peak everything. The US framework for
> > managing the world,
> > > within the context of Climate War, is Sustainment.
> > >
> > > Sustainment: sustainment is an extension of the
> > military term describing the
> > > supply and operations of maintenance to military
> > operations. Sustainment is
> > > military-industrial supplied sustainability.
> > >
> > > In the latest US
> > > Counter-Insurgency military doctrine, Sustainment
> > leads all
> > > counter-insurgency operations. Within the Human
> > Terrain System, hearts and
> > > minds are won by the the supply of infrastructure and
> > utilities. Sustainment
> > > leads operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the
> > ?civilian surge? is
> > > sustainment. With the increasing instability of the
> > climate system, the
> > > global economic and geo-political system, sustainment
> > will be supplied with
> > > the strongest aspect of US national power; the
> > military industrial complex.
> > > Within the neo-liberal environment, the
> > military-industrial compex is
> > > increasingly privatised and fragmented.
> > >
> > > As Noam Klein describes in Shock
> > > Doctrine, disaster capitalism profits greatly from
> > crisis, real or imagined,
> > > and as the Climate War becomes the dominant organising
> > principle for the
> > > planet, through real and imagined crisis, sustainment
> > supplied by
> > > corporate-state military industrial system. This
> > military industrial system
> > > will seek to profit and expand from both the crisis of
> > conflict, of
> > > destruction of war and the maintenance of peace, and
> > the rebuilding of
> > > damaged systems.
> >
> > And so your proposal is to DO exactly what? as opposed to
> > wallowing for more years in comfy, smug, self-serving
> > anti-war/imperialism/establishment/military rhetoric.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > searchstring
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 13
> ********************************************