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  • From: Lee Flier <leeflier@comcast.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Huh!
  • Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 16:18:44 -0500

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment... there are those who believe (and I think this is quite a legitimate point) that if we hadn't made the deals we did with China for example, we'd be in far more danger of an actual war with them, and many other countries' borders would also be in danger. If they don't find more civilized ways to develop their economy, given their huge population, their only recourse is to try to take over more land and resources, which of course they've already shown that they don't shy away from doing.

As it is, having China as economically dependent on us as they are has worked out pretty well in maintaining the peace. And I agree with Clinton's basic sentiment that as people become more prosperous and less desperate, they're not so likely to take up arms. If China is allowed to develop for awhile they may well end up having a peaceful revolution from within, and this could only be good for the world.

The problem is that this process is frustratingly slow, and there are too many people who reap illicit profits along the way. How to avoid that, I couldn't tell you. Progress always seems to come at a high price. And of course, there's the whole question of how much the world can really "develop" using an unsustainable model. I think we need to confront that problem, but meanwhile, there are lots of other countries who don't really care about the answer - they just want their refrigerators and their cars, and if that means going to war to get them because we won't trade them for cheap labor, well that's what they'll do.

On 3/3/2010 10:00 PM, Stephen Sherman wrote:
Nice happy talk from the old Pres; maybe he even believes it. However
history has proven this sales pitch to be nothing more than a load of
rubbish.

The end results of NAFTA, free trade with China, and all the other scams
which were sold on lines and promises like these, have ended up quite
differently. The US and the West has given up their manufacturing jobs
and expertise so that large corporations can pocket the wage differences
between home and third world work forces. Workers on both sides have
seen increased unemployment and declining standards of living. The West
when the manufacturing jobs first left. And more recently those workers
who first got the jobs as manufacturing moves yet again to cheaper labor
markets.

These policies have been a disaster for all. It will take decades to
repair the damage done.


On 3/3/2010 6:33 PM, Keith Johnson wrote:
/"The more complex societies get and the more complex the networks of
interdependence within and beyond community and national borders get,
the more people are forced in their own interests to find non-zero-sum
solutions. That is, win--win solutions instead of win--lose
solutions.... Because we find as our interdependence increases that, on
the whole, we do better when other people do better as well --- so we
have to find ways that we can all win, we have to accommodate each
other...."

found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum
quoting.....Bill Clinton
...........................................................................................................
/"The best defense against hard times is a well-fed neighbor."
<http://www.wellfedneighbor.com/>
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