permaculture

[Lee Flier <leeflier@comcast.net>]

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment... there are those who 
believe (and I think this is quite a legitimate point) that if we hadn't 
made the deals we did with China for example, we'd be in far more danger 
of an actual war with them, and many other countries' borders would also 
be in danger.  If they don't find more civilized ways to develop their 
economy, given their huge population, their only recourse is to try to 
take over more land and resources, which of course they've already shown 
that they don't shy away from doing.

As it is, having China as economically dependent on us as they are has 
worked out pretty well in maintaining the peace.  And I agree with 
Clinton's basic sentiment that as people become more prosperous and less 
desperate, they're not so likely to take up arms.  If China is allowed 
to develop for awhile they may well end up having a peaceful revolution 
from within, and this could only be good for the world.

The problem is that this process is frustratingly slow, and there are 
too many people who reap illicit profits along the way.  How to avoid 
that, I couldn't tell you.  Progress always seems to come at a high 
price.  And of course, there's the whole question of how much the world 
can really "develop" using an unsustainable model.  I think we need to 
confront that problem, but meanwhile, there are lots of other countries 
who don't really care about the answer - they just want their 
refrigerators and their cars, and if that means going to war to get them 
because we won't trade them for cheap labor, well that's what they'll do.

On 3/3/2010 10:00 PM, Stephen Sherman wrote:
> Nice happy talk from the old Pres; maybe he even believes it. However
> history has proven this sales pitch to be nothing more than a load of
> rubbish.
>
> The end results of NAFTA, free trade with China, and all the other scams
> which were sold on lines and promises like these, have ended up quite
> differently. The US and the West has given up their manufacturing jobs
> and expertise so that large corporations can pocket the wage differences
> between home and third world work forces. Workers on both sides have
> seen increased unemployment and declining standards of living. The West
> when the manufacturing jobs first left. And more recently those workers
> who first got the jobs as manufacturing moves yet again to cheaper labor
> markets.
>
> These policies have been a disaster for all. It will take decades to
> repair the damage done.
>
>
> On 3/3/2010 6:33 PM, Keith Johnson wrote:
>    
> > /"The more complex societies get and the more complex the networks of
> > interdependence within and beyond community and national borders get,
> > the more people are forced in their own interests to find non-zero-sum
> > solutions. That is, win--win solutions instead of win--lose
> > solutions.... Because we find as our interdependence increases that, on
> > the whole, we do better when other people do better as well --- so we
> > have to find ways that we can all win, we have to accommodate each
> > other...."
> >
> > found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum
> > quoting.....Bill Clinton
> > ...........................................................................................................
> > /"The best defense against hard times is a well-fed neighbor."
> > <http://www.wellfedneighbor.com/>
> > 462 members
> >
> >