permaculture

[Udan Farm <udanfarm@yahoo.com>]

Sorry it's taken me a bit to get back to this topic.
I was thinking along the same lines as what Michael said:
"I suggest that each 2010 regional pc gathering have a short discussion about 
a national gathering. Does any region want to host a national event at some 
point in the future? Who would like to go? Perhaps there could be a think 
tank of one person each from the various regions. I will bring it up at the 
Washington State Permaculture Convergence next Sept."....
I think that if we had a North American Permaculture CONGRESS  with one to 
two delegates from each of 11 regions of the US, that a lot could be 
discussed without hundreds of people hopping on airplanes, and without a lot 
of "eco-tourists" showing up to dilute the work that needs to be done.. Nice 
thing about this is it could be hosted at someone's farm, rather than get 
pricey and end up at a conference center or ??
Since I do graphics, I made a 
map...http://www.georgiapermaculture.com/NationalCongressMap.html
So, 2011? Find a region that is willing to host a delegation of about 22 
people?  Talk to our regional gatherings about this?  Maybe every OTHER year 
would be good. I plan to bring it to our gathering and discuss. I also plan 
to talk to folks about anyone interested in working on the wikis, and other 
web/computer/diploma things that need doing if we are to keep some national 
cohesion into the future...
thoughts?

'dohi' (peace)Isabel

--- On Wed, 12/9/09, Jono Neiger <neiger@csld.edu> wrote:

From: Jono Neiger <neiger@csld.edu>
Subject: Re: semi-capitulation on national pc conference
To: "Michael Pilarski" <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
Cc: "christy pc" <fieldofgreens@earthlink.net>, bwaldrop@cox.net, 
scott@permaculture.org, michael@fingerlakespermaculture.org, 
davej@edibleforestgardens.com, earthsurfing@yahoo.com, hibernia33@yahoo.com, 
slowfoodguy@yahoo.com, venaurafarm@bellsouth.net, chromatophore@gmail.com, 
udanfarm@yahoo.com, info@permacultureactivist.net
Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 10:23 AM

Michael- Thanks for your note and even bringing up the possibility of a 
national gathering. The Northeast is gaining a lot of momentum. We've been 
organizing heavily and weaving together the network for the last 6 years. 
We've had 5 very successful regional gatherings kicked off by David Holmgrens 
visit in 2005. Each convergence has been in different parts of the region and 
this has generated great momentum for local groups and brought the excitement 
of pc to these areas.   

We've had winter strategy meetings to refine how we reach new folks and 
strengthen ties.

I believe a national gathering/convergence would be beneficial at some point. 
Maybe, as we began here in the NE, smaller strategy meetings could be held to 
begin to make the interconnections we need. I think growing the movement 
steadily versus big splashes is best.

Michael-Skeeter- Thanks also for introducing me to permaculture in 1995 by 
having a copy of the Intro on your table at the Okanagan barter fest. 
Remember I bartered for the copy helping you with some seed collection? Its 
been a great ride since then...

For the Earth

Jono-- 

******************
Jono Neiger
Regenerative Design Group
308 Main St, Suite 2C
Greenfield, Massachusetts 01301
413-367-2304
www.regenerativedesigngroup.com


Conway School of Landscape Design
Graduate Program in Sustainable Landscape Planning & Design
www.csld.edu

PINE; Permaculture Institute of the Northeast
www.thepine.org



On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:02 AM, Michael Pilarski 
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:


Hello Scott Pittman, Isabel at Udan Farm, David Jacke, Keith Morris, Michael 
Burns, Lisa Fernandes, Bob Waldrop, christophe mckeon gonzalez de leon, and 
Tripp Tibbetts.


Thank you for responding to my email on a national permaculture convergence.  
Your responses have given me a lot of food for thought. I recognize that 
there is a lot of carbon footprint in a national gathering and so it should 
aim to be a really good one to be worth it.  Something not to be rushed off 
lightly with. I admit to temporary insanity in offering the Washington State 
Permaculture Convergence as a national gathering in 2010. Our state 
convergence team doesn’t have the capacity to take something like this on 
with only 9 months lead time.  Similarly the NorthEast permaculture 
convergence would be hard pressed to do it in this time frame.  


Scales in
 permaculture gatherings.

A. The individual permaculturists and small groups such as communities, 
cooperatives,businesses. Each has its story. 
B. Local permaculture clubs at the neighborhood and town level.

C. larger permaculture organizations (formal and informal) at the 
metropolitan level and, county or sub-state level.
D. Statewide or regional convergences, such as the Northeastern North 
American Convergence, the Southeastern Permaculture Gathering, and the 
Washington State Permaculture Convergence. 

E. National gatherings. For instance, the Australians have had a national pc 
gathering every two years since about 1985. I attended one in Adelaide, South 
Australia and it was big, well organized and a great time.  
F. Continental permaculture convergences. Sort of like the North American 
Bioregional Congress. You are probably all aware that permaculture and the 
bioregional congresses have always gone hand in hand.  

G.
 International Permaculture Conference and Convergence.  They have been held 
periodically since 1984. They have been at longer frequencies the last couple 
decades. I  participated in IPC II, III and IV and they were wonderful events 
with a lot of cross pollination, (Washington State, New Zealand, and Nepal 
respectively).


Each of these scales has its place and purpose. Of course people will get 
together more frequently at the lower ends of the scale.  Each scale up 
people have to travel further.  There is more carbon footprint. Fewer people 
can go. They happen less often.  


Gatherings and festivals are one of the most important parts of being human. 
Particularly when it is a gathering of your own “culture” or subculture. You 
feel safe there and belong. People from the same profession getting together 
is inspiring, and empowering as well as it offers a way to exchange 
information and make connections that can
 never be achieved via internet or technology. 

I am thrilled by every local and regional permaculture gathering in the US, 
or elsewhere in the world. That is where the main action is. But some 
national and international gatherings are good too. Permaculture is about 
localization and decentralization, but we can still talk to one another. If 
we ever have a national US permaculture gathering (or better yet North 
American) I will encourage our region’s representatives to go by train.  


Email and the internet are not benign. Technology has a footprint as well. I 
do use the internet some and find it useful. But I am not putting all my eggs 
in that basket. I applaud every permaculture listserve, website, facebook, 
meetup group, twitter, ning, etc. It is all great, but just remember it could 
all disappear one day, or parts of it piecemeal, or access. 

This is one reason I believe it is good and necessary for permaculture 
gatherings to
 happen at all scales. Face to face encounters, building lines of 
communication that can be strengthened by technology, but that are not 
dependent on it.  Always have multiple elements for single functions, eg. 
communication. 


Okay, so while I do agree that a US national pc gathering doesn’t seem like a 
good idea for 2010. I’d still like to make a positive suggestion for what to 
do next. 

I suggest that each 2010 regional pc gathering have a short discussion about 
a national gathering. Does any region want to host a national event at some 
point in the future? Who would like to go? Perhaps there could be a think 
tank of one person each from the various regions. I will bring it up at the 
Washington State Permaculture Convergence next Sept.  


Scott mentioned the interpersonal difficulties at the NAP (North American 
Permaculture) meeting he organized in New Mexico.  I was there and one of the 
difficult ones. Putting on
 a national event would require a very good team (in fact it is required at 
all scales) . Event organizers who are very capable, very friendly, very 
tactful and not full of ego.  Every movement has its difficult personalities. 
 There are even some nice people who don’t get along. All in all, my 
experience has been that permaculture is full of (mainly) really nice people. 
It is usually possible to integrate a few egotists or combative people into a 
group event, but you don’t want the event run by any of them. (PS. This is 
not meant as a jab at Scott. He did a great job at the NAP event, the 
fractionous wasn’t his fault).


Who knows how long cheap, fast transportation will be available. An economic 
collapse or suchlike would drastically affect our running around going to 
gatherings; however even if travel gets harder I expect a lot of human 
ingenuity and we will continue to have gatherings.  


This conversation got started
 when Isabel at Udan Farm inquired if there has ever been a national pc 
conference. 

One good thing that might come out of this conversation is that Tripp 
Tibbetts has offered to help pull together the roster of regional 
permaculture events held in the US to date.  


I guess I will send this to the Activist.  And am willing to follow this 
conversation if anyone wants. Let me know if anyone wants to organize a 
national or a west coast convergence.  

Blah, blah, blah.


Have a good time at all your permaculture events. 

Permacordially

Michael Pilarski
Michael@friendsofthetrees.net











>From bwaldrop@cox.net  Fri Dec 18 13:25:21 2009
Return-Path: <bwaldrop@cox.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 85C4D4C012; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:25:21 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=REMOVE_BEFORE_LINK
        autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from eastrmmtao103.cox.net (eastrmmtao103.cox.net [68.230.240.9])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3454E4C010
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:25:20 -0500 (EST)
Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao103.cox.net
        (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP
        id 
<20091218182520.WTWU3222.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net>
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:25:20 -0500
Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([68.12.120.164])
        by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp
        id JiRK1d0053Yugo402iRKJX; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:25:19 -0500
X-VR-Score: -207.00
X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=EvRd2doraLOGgXPtCxYls7kl7Mkc7muryAdTQQ/qGWU    
  c=1 sm=1 a=SCquQpkOQoYA:10 a=zxnaOnIGjRPI24un5oy0Ww==:17
        a=QRXp_mP2AAAA:8
        a=h-bZqocIAAAA:8 a=tPI1o-uLAAAA:8 a=aiUEf_SVAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8
        a=5Up8faWwAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=TJUNH3VKAAAA:8 a=5Yk5cBdrAAAA:8
        a=jlOrGihdAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=kw-15vvEAAAA:8
        a=z9mASfzLAAAA:8 agOPPgp3AAAA:8 a=vQmtI6r3AAAA:8 a=Mzjh-c6IAAAA:8
        a=wkj3dZ8WAAAA:8 a=m4QiqBxosHiNFZ4H8n8A:9 a=XtfWWuwULYT7_cKN8RIA:7
        aHnj4h2Y7XR4lDgBHPG09fo4EyEA:4 a7NZ63r5LCcA:10 a=sLTqHX_My0cA:10
        a=gRe2ceFy2kkA:10 a�FttswtvuAA:10 a=oYxTidJ2fyMA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10
        a=v6MMM96S_sUA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=NefXyjCdFZUA:10 
a=bjo5WYZiLzcA:10
        a=GvI60GRrmAgA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 
a=nDJ23MZDBEUA:10
        a=ymkiKAlyCMcA:10 a=he_YYKPdLp2Js8NC:21 a=MKjCJG2v19jIbICb:21
        a=zxnaOnIGjRPI24un5oy0Ww==:117
X-CM-Score: 0.00
Message-ID: <4B2BC90E.4000802@cox.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:25:18 -0600
From: Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop@cox.net>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <251882.87584.qm@web57101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <251882.87584.qm@web57101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Subject: Re: [permaculture] (off-list) semi-capitulation on national
        pc      conference
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:25:21 -0000

I like the way you configured Region 3 (OK, TX, CO, NM), and would
definitely be interested in attending a regional gathering, hopefully in
a city served by Greyhound bus. I would also volunteer to help with
organizing the meeting. I have some past experience in organizing
conventions, meetings, workshops, etc. Actually, once upon a time I went
bankrupt in the meeting planning business, hehehe, so I have a long list
of things "NOT" to do in such endeavors.

Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
www.oklahomafood.coop
www.energyconservationinfo.org
www.barkingfrogspermaculture.org

Udan Farm wrote:
> Sorry it's taken me a bit to get back to this topic.
> I was thinking along the same lines as what Michael said:
> "I suggest that each 2010 regional pc gathering have a short discussion 
> about a national gathering. Does any region want to host a national event 
> at some point in the future? Who would like to go? Perhaps there could be a 
> think tank of one person each from the various regions. I will bring it up 
> at the� Washington State� Permaculture Convergence next Sept."....
> I think that if we had a North American Permaculture CONGRESS � with one to 
> two delegates from each of 11 regions of the US, that a lot could be 
> discussed without hundreds of people hopping on airplanes, and without a 
> lot of "eco-tourists" showing up to dilute the work that needs to be done.. 
> Nice thing about this is it could be hosted at someone's farm, rather than 
> get pricey and end up at a conference center or ??
> Since I do graphics, I made a 
> map...http://www.georgiapermaculture.com/NationalCongressMap.html
> So, 2011? Find a region that is willing to host a delegation of about 22 
> people? � Talk to our regional gatherings about this? � Maybe every OTHER 
> year would be good.� I plan to bring it to our gathering and discuss. I 
> also plan to talk to folks about anyone interested in working on the wikis, 
> and other web/computer/diploma things that need doing if we are to keep 
> some national cohesion into the future...
> thoughts?
>
> 'dohi' (peace)Isabel
>
> --- On Wed, 12/9/09, Jono Neiger <neiger@csld.edu> wrote:
>
> From: Jono Neiger <neiger@csld.edu>
> Subject: Re: semi-capitulation on national pc conference
> To: "Michael Pilarski" <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "christy pc" <fieldofgreens@earthlink.net>, bwaldrop@cox.net, 
> scott@permaculture.org, michael@fingerlakespermaculture.org, 
> davej@edibleforestgardens.com, earthsurfing@yahoo.com, 
> hibernia33@yahoo.com, slowfoodguy@yahoo.com, venaurafarm@bellsouth.net, 
> chromatophore@gmail.com, udanfarm@yahoo.com, info@permacultureactivist.net
> Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 10:23 AM
>
> Michael-� Thanks for your note and even bringing up the possibility of a 
> national gathering. The Northeast is gaining a lot of momentum. We've been 
> organizing heavily and weaving together the network for the last 6 years. 
> We've had 5 very successful regional gatherings kicked off by David 
> Holmgrens visit in 2005. Each convergence has been in different parts of 
> the region and this has generated great momentum for local groups and 
> brought the excitement of pc to these areas. � �
>
> We've had winter strategy meetings to refine how we reach new folks and 
> strengthen ties.
>
> I believe a national gathering/convergence would be beneficial at some 
> point. Maybe, as we began here in the NE, smaller strategy meetings could 
> be held to begin to make the interconnections we need. I think growing the 
> movement steadily versus big splashes is best.
>
> Michael-Skeeter- Thanks also for introducing me to permaculture in 1995 by 
> having a copy of the Intro on your table at the Okanagan barter fest. 
> Remember I bartered� for the copy� helping you with some seed collection? 
> Its been a great ride since then...
>
> For the Earth
>
> Jono--�
>
> ******************
> Jono Neiger
> Regenerative Design Group
> 308 Main St, Suite 2C
> Greenfield, Massachusetts 01301
> 413-367-2304
> www.regenerativedesigngroup.com
>
>
> Conway School of Landscape Design
> Graduate Program in Sustainable Landscape Planning & Design
> www.csld.edu
>
> PINE; Permaculture Institute of the Northeast
> www.thepine.org
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:02 AM, Michael Pilarski 
> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello Scott Pittman, Isabel at Udan Farm, David Jacke, Keith Morris, 
> Michael Burns, Lisa Fernandes, Bob Waldrop, christophe mckeon gonzalez de 
> leon, and Tripp Tibbetts.
>
>
> Thank you for responding to my email on a national permaculture 
> convergence.�  Your responses have given me a lot of food for thought. I 
> recognize that there is a lot of carbon footprint in a national gathering 
> and so it should aim to be a really good one to be worth it.�  Something 
> not to be rushed off lightly with. I admit to temporary insanity in 
> offering the Washington State Permaculture Convergence as a national 
> gathering in 2010. Our state convergence team doesn’t have the capacity to 
> take something like this on with only 9 months lead time.�  Similarly the 
> NorthEast permaculture convergence would be hard pressed to do it in this 
> time frame. �
>
>
> Scales in
>  permaculture gatherings.
>
> A. The individual permaculturists and small groups such as communities, 
> cooperatives,businesses. Each has its story.
> B. Local permaculture clubs at the neighborhood and town level.
>
> C. larger permaculture organizations (formal and informal) at the 
> metropolitan level and, county or sub-state level.
> D. Statewide or regional convergences, such as the Northeastern North 
> American Convergence, the Southeastern Permaculture Gathering, and the 
> Washington State Permaculture Convergence.
>
> E. National gatherings. For instance, the Australians have had a national 
> pc gathering every two years since about 1985. I attended one in Adelaide, 
> South Australia and it was big, well organized and a great time. �
> F. Continental permaculture convergences. Sort of like the North American 
> Bioregional Congress. You are probably all aware that permaculture and the 
> bioregional congresses have always gone hand in hand. �
>
> G.
>  International Permaculture Conference and Convergence.�  They have been 
> held periodically since 1984. They have been at longer frequencies the last 
> couple decades. I�  participated in IPC II, III and IV and they were 
> wonderful events with a lot of cross pollination, (Washington State, New 
> Zealand, and Nepal respectively).
>
>
> Each of these scales has its place and purpose. Of course people will get 
> together more frequently at the lower ends of the scale.�  Each scale up 
> people have to travel further.�  There is more carbon footprint. Fewer 
> people can go. They happen less often. �
>
>
> Gatherings and festivals are one of the most important parts of being 
> human. Particularly when it is a gathering of your own “culture” or 
> subculture. You feel safe there and belong. People from the same profession 
> getting together is inspiring, and empowering as well as it offers a way to 
> exchange information and make connections that can
>  never be achieved via internet or technology.
>
> I am thrilled by every local and regional permaculture gathering in the US, 
> or elsewhere in the world. That is where the main action is. But some 
> national and international gatherings are good too. Permaculture is about 
> localization and decentralization, but we can still talk to one another. If 
> we ever have a national US permaculture gathering (or better yet North 
> American) I will encourage our region’s representatives to go by train. �
>
>
> Email and the internet are not benign. Technology has a footprint as well. 
> I do use the internet some and find it useful. But I am not putting all my 
> eggs in that basket. I applaud every permaculture listserve, website, 
> facebook, meetup group, twitter, ning, etc. It is all great, but just 
> remember it could all disappear one day, or parts of it piecemeal, or 
> access.
>
> This is one reason I believe it is good and necessary for permaculture 
> gatherings to
>  happen at all scales. Face to face encounters, building lines of 
> communication that can be strengthened by technology, but that are not 
> dependent on it.�  Always have multiple elements for single functions, eg. 
> communication.
>
>
> Okay, so while I do agree that a US national pc gathering doesn’t seem like 
> a good idea for 2010. I’d still like to make a positive suggestion for what 
> to do next.
>
> I suggest that each 2010 regional pc gathering have a short discussion 
> about a national gathering. Does any region want to host a national event 
> at some point in the future? Who would like to go? Perhaps there could be a 
> think tank of one person each from the various regions. I will bring it up 
> at the Washington State Permaculture Convergence next Sept. �
>
>
> Scott mentioned the interpersonal difficulties at the NAP (North American 
> Permaculture) meeting he organized in New Mexico.�  I was there and one of 
> the difficult ones. Putting on
>  a national event would require a very good team (in fact it is required at 
> all scales) . Event organizers who are very capable, very friendly, very 
> tactful and not full of ego.�  Every movement has its difficult 
> personalities.�  There are even some nice people who don’t get along. All 
> in all, my experience has been that permaculture is full of (mainly) really 
> nice people. It is usually possible to integrate a few egotists or 
> combative people into a group event, but you don’t want the event run by 
> any of them. (PS. This is not meant as a jab at Scott. He did a great job 
> at the NAP event, the fractionous wasn’t his fault).
>
>
> Who knows how long cheap, fast transportation will be available. An 
> economic collapse or suchlike would drastically affect our running around 
> going to gatherings; however even if travel gets harder I expect a lot of 
> human ingenuity and we will continue to have gatherings. �
>
>
> This conversation got started
>  when Isabel at Udan Farm inquired if there has ever been a national pc 
> conference.
>
> One good thing that might come out of this conversation is that Tripp 
> Tibbetts has offered to help pull together the roster of regional 
> permaculture events held in the US to date. �
>
>
> I guess I will send this to the Activist.�  And am willing to follow this 
> conversation if anyone wants. Let me know if anyone wants to organize a 
> national or a west coast convergence. �
>
> Blah, blah, blah.
>
>
> Have a good time at all your permaculture events.
>
> Permacordially
>
> Michael Pilarski
> Michael@friendsofthetrees.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>