permaculture

["Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>]

If subscribers would quit trying to send their messages to the list and also 
to 299 other people in one go,
knowing the the list software is configured to allow no more than a total of 
four recipients to individual posts
submitted to the list, it being one of them. Then maybe what they want to send to the forum would get through instead of 
ending up in the bit bucket, like this one almost did; despite my efforts to approve it manually it still never got 
through. This one message took me about 15 mins total to deal with. I value all posts sent to the forum so will take the 
time to make sure they make it. Message: when you post to the list send it to no more than three additional recipients.

<>

Subject:
Re: [permaculture] Mollison's PDM, copyright, sharing, new PDM, etc etc etc 
Was: Subject: Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 82
From:
Darren Doherty <darren@permaculture.biz>
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:17:31 -0600
To:
permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, permacultue discussion list 
<pil-pc-oceania@lists.permacultureinternational.org>
CC:
Lisa Mollison <mollison.lisa@tagari.com>, Lisa Mollison <lisa@tagari.com>

G'day,

Just wanted to chime in here and thank Robyn Francis for her as always calm 
and non-adversarial response to all of this...

My personal take is that if people can do better than the PDM then go to the trouble, expense and effort of publishing 
their own. I have thought many times of writing a book but have not made the time to devote to doing so...the main 
reason being that things are changing so fast and whatever you pen now might well be surpassed in pretty short 
order....I prefer to do courses and do (and read) case studies of actual projects (such as David Holmgren's work).....

My other personal opinion is that open source is the way to go, and we demonstrate this by giving all of our 
presentations and associated files away at courses....books are only part of the information economy these days, the 
internet has changed this forever. That said if you go to the great effort and expense of penning a tome then it is your 
right to make it copyright or open source....

As for the Ticafa example I think that it is very disappointing to hear and certainly not the first case I have heard 
of....that said the criteria for registration with The Permaculture Institute (TPI) are quite clear, and in spite of the 
inconsistencies Robyn has clearly enunciated, they are the rules that the TPI have put out there. That only strengthens 
the case for an alternative to be developed if there is the demand for it. That this was 1st mooted at IPC8 and now we 
have just had IPC9 only suggests one thing....there is no champion for this at this stage to carry something like this 
through: just as there has been no champion to carry through similarly well intended projects such as a Professional 
Designers Register/Institute etc over the years. Most of us doing the yards are carrying enormous cans of workload and 
the cans are not getting any lighter so to take on even more is a big ask.

Otherwise the clear option is to make your own institutes, your own certificates and deliver the course (s) that the 
people in your markets need. Sure the imprimatur of giving a TPI PDC certificate is great but it is not the be all and 
end all....

All the best,

Darren Doherty


<................................>

And my response is that people around the world, new to permaculture, some living in dire circumstances for whom 
permaculture would make a huge difference in their lives for for those in the communities they live in, who would also 
be willing to go out and teach, spreading the practice of permaculture to localities and regions all around them,
their taking pride in being awarded an _internationally recognized_ 
certificate, acknowledging their accomplishment
in fully completing their training and passing examination, knowing that at 
that point they are officially part of
the global community of practicing permaculturists who go forth and spread the good word, same as anyone in some 
American suburb, a farmer in Arkansas, a gardener in England, rice farmers in Vietnam and the Phillipines,
the equal of anyone on this level Permacultue playing field. Mollison or some other individual or group needs to be able 
to offer some kind of certificate upon completing the necessary, officially sanctioned, internationally recognized
coursework. That, to my way of thinking, is the only proper, credible and ethical thing to do. Comments from Alex and 
Robyn welcome at this point. I have many reasons for saying this and by the time I write them up will have thought of 
many more. We all have much to be thankful for this Thanksgiving and we should be mindful of the ways we can help bring 
others to the wonders offered through Permaculture, as far as we are able. There should be only a small fee for a 
teacher to register himself and/or register his curriculum with the Permaculture Institute, in full compliance with
their standards and there should be no fee for those in poor third world 
countries, who received their certificate from
a registered, certified teacher, who want to go forth and teach others in their locales and regions and disseminate the 
practice to many others who do not take any coursework. In this way the current standards for a permaculture curriculum 
are not compromised and are maintained in an open ended way, bestowing immense benefit on the countries where the 
practice of Permaculture is taken up. I have not read the documentation on registration at the PI so will take a look so 
I will be better informed.

Darren says:
"Otherwise the clear option is to make your own institutes, your own
certificates and deliver the course (s) that the people in your markets need.
Sure the imprimatur of giving a TPI PDC certificate is great but it is not the be 
all and end all...."

This has been a long standing isssue. How will the Permaculture standards, the definition of permaculture and the 
content of all curriculum taught be maintained. What would happen if many people just went their own way reinventing 
permaculture in accordance with their own ideas, wishes and even biases and transient notions? What would happen to 
Permaculture as a discpline worth serious study and adoption as an important practice in their lifestyles?

The public perception of what Permaculture is as well as that of 
Sustainability needs to be carefully stewarded.

Happy Thanksgiving 2009!

Lawrence