permaculture

[jonathanguaya@riseup.net]

Suraj ! Thank you so much for bringing this reality to the collective
focus. Are you involved in Ekta Parishad ?

Now. Am I hearing Permaculturists saying : "Yeah, but I do not know what
the solution is ?" If so, I wonder why you keep calling yourself a
Permaculturist. It is hard for me to say that, but doesnt Permaculture
says "The Problem is the Solution" ?

My name is Jonathan Guaya. I am a Amateur Permaculturist. I am working to
create a SOVEREIGN Permanent Culture in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. (Anybody
near to connect with?).

In my everyday talks with people, I keep on saying that THE TIME HAS COME
for Humanity to shine. TIME HAS COME for LIBERATION of our modern slaves
condition (family, time, money). TIME HAS COME to bring back the Garden of
Eden.

To me, Permaculturists are the real leaders of Today and Tommorow because
of their HOLYstic understandings and visions. Do you feel me ?

This forum is already beautiful and powerful, but I suggest that it shall
become the orchestration of the NECESSARY WORLDWIDE TRANSITION. Because we
are already aware of what is coming.

This is what my Creator told me to tell you today.
This is the Call of our Mother Earth.

TIME HAS COME TO SHINE PEOPLE.

Jonathan Guaya.
Montreal Permaculture Guild

P.s. What if the Concept of Adam and God were simply collective
consciousness ?


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Why is permaculture more about selling books,   DVDs and
>       training        courses? (Suraj Kumar)
>    2. Re: Why is permaculture more about selling books, DVDs and
>       training        courses? (Bela Beke)
>    3. Re: Why is permaculture more about selling books, DVDs and
>       training        courses? (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    4. Re: Why is permaculture more about selling books,       DVDs    and
>       training courses? (mIEKAL aND)
>    5. Re: Why is permaculture more about selling books,       DVDs    and
>       training courses? (paul wheaton)
>    6. Re: Why is permaculture more about selling books, DVDs  and
>       training courses? (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    7. Re: Why is permaculture more about selling books,       DVDs    and
>       training courses? (Suraj Kumar)
>    8. Re: Why is permaculture more about selling books, DVDs and
>       training        courses? (Michael Burns)
>    9. Re: Why is permaculture more about selling books,       DVDs    and
>       training courses? (Jocelyn Campbell)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:46:26 +0530
> From: Suraj Kumar <suraj@sunson.in>
> Subject: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling books,
>       DVDs and training       courses?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <bc5cb460906232216s4e1e47b9ud72aa5b9ad4ddf70@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I get the feeling that the permaculture movement has morphed into a
> market place to sell books, DVDs and training courses related to
> permaculture than a platform for sharing techniques and allowing
> humans to live closer to nature in a simpler way. Many a material I
> find on the internet are incomplete and keep referring to "Stuff to
> Buy" or "Courses to Take". Just search for permaculture on youtube and
> that's what you find. Any site claiming to be a "permaculture" site
> talks about doing a course.
>
> Or am I mistaken? I'd love to be corrected if I'm mistaken.
>
> I remember some noble soul here who had setup permaculture.info - that
> is great! WTG! But, why do the 'experts' end up locking themselves
> into seclusion and not share their knowledge?
>
> Cheers,
>
>   -Suraj
>
> --
> "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
> our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
> Dr. Albert Bartlett
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:37:44 +1000
> From: Bela Beke <beke@primus.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling
>       books, DVDs and training        courses?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4A41E5D8.7060407@primus.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I agree with you Suraj.
> Don't know what the solution may be.Be interesting to see who else will
> reply ,and what comments are going to be made
> How do you think 'experts' be able to help spread the knowledge?What
> would you like to see change?
> Regards,Bela Beke
>
> Suraj Kumar wrote:
>> I get the feeling that the permaculture movement has morphed into a
>> market place to sell books, DVDs and training courses related to
>> permaculture than a platform for sharing techniques and allowing
>> humans to live closer to nature in a simpler way. Many a material I
>> find on the internet are incomplete and keep referring to "Stuff to
>> Buy" or "Courses to Take". Just search for permaculture on youtube and
>> that's what you find. Any site claiming to be a "permaculture" site
>> talks about doing a course.
>>
>> Or am I mistaken? I'd love to be corrected if I'm mistaken.
>>
>> I remember some noble soul here who had setup permaculture.info - that
>> is great! WTG! But, why do the 'experts' end up locking themselves
>> into seclusion and not share their knowledge?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>   -Suraj
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:34:19 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling
>       books, DVDs and training        courses?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4A422B5B.1040406@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Suraj Kumar wrote:
>> I get the feeling that the permaculture movement has morphed into a
>> market place to sell books, DVDs and training courses related to
>> permaculture than a platform for sharing techniques and allowing
>> humans to live closer to nature in a simpler way. Many a material I
>> find on the internet are incomplete and keep referring to "Stuff to
>> Buy" or "Courses to Take". Just search for permaculture on youtube and
>> that's what you find. Any site claiming to be a "permaculture" site
>> talks about doing a course.
>>
>> Or am I mistaken? I'd love to be corrected if I'm mistaken.
>>
>
>> I remember some noble soul here who had setup permaculture.info - that
>> is great! WTG! But, why do the 'experts' end up locking themselves
>> into seclusion and not share their knowledge?
>
> Very good question, one that has been asked many times in the past. One
> answer given: they need to retain
> a certain amount of proprietary material, their own knowledgebases, their
> information resources collected over
> the years to use to earn a living through teaching appointments, workshops
> PDC training courses they offer.
> If they gave it all away noone would need to pay for coursework,
> consultation and workshops they offered.
>
> Personally, I have always thought that more in-depth sharing of
> information and resources through mailing lists
> and wikis such as permaculture.info would stimulate business rather than
> reduce it. Course they could always say "we're
> not geting paid to share this material so why do it". Because it
> stimulates business opportunities that would result in
> greater income for them and add to their personal knowledgebase.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:55:41 -0500
> From: mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling
>       books,  DVDs    and training courses?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <ea91e3ca0906240655g73357c43t9a183f1a92fd9422@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> This is exactly the reason we stopped doing design courses & focussed
> instead on setting up a demonstration & intern program.  We found the
> majority of folks in our circle could never afford to buy a copy of the
> Permaculture big book or a lot of the other books for that matter, let
> alone
> have the resources to attend a design course.  Yes there are such things
> as
> work exchange etc in order to go to a course, but you can't put on a
> course
> with top-notch talent & make the financials work if everyone is doing a
> work
> exchange.
>
> Our efforts have gone into networking, setting up a nursery to spread free
> or very cheap plant material locally & integrating permaculture into the
> very active & vital organic farming scene that we have here in the
> driftless
> bioregion, tho a lot of organic farmers are really a hard sell because
> they
> are still operating by very old outdated paradigms.
>
> ~mIEKAL
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Suraj Kumar <suraj@sunson.in> wrote:
>
>> I get the feeling that the permaculture movement has morphed into a
>> market place to sell books, DVDs and training courses related to
>> permaculture than a platform for sharing techniques and allowing
>> humans to live closer to nature in a simpler way. Many a material I
>> find on the internet are incomplete and keep referring to "Stuff to
>> Buy" or "Courses to Take". Just search for permaculture on youtube and
>> that's what you find. Any site claiming to be a "permaculture" site
>> talks about doing a course.
>>
>> Or am I mistaken? I'd love to be corrected if I'm mistaken.
>>
>> I remember some noble soul here who had setup permaculture.info - that
>> is great! WTG! But, why do the 'experts' end up locking themselves
>> into seclusion and not share their knowledge?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>  -Suraj
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:10:00 -0700
> From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling
>       books,  DVDs    and training courses?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <22d4eb790906240810i5e6c9b52ma8612e5c8dd1b89c@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I think there are tons of people freely sharing.  I know I spend at least
> a
> couple of hours a day at permies.com.
>
> And, I heartily encourage people to find a way to earn a living through
> permaculture.  Sepp Holzer certainly sets a lovely model for this.  He
> gives
> lots of information away and has found dozens (hundreds) of ways to earn a
> living too.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Bela Beke <beke@primus.com.au> wrote:
>
>> I agree with you Suraj.
>> Don't know what the solution may be.Be interesting to see who else will
>> reply ,and what comments are going to be made
>> How do you think 'experts' be able to help spread the knowledge?What
>> would you like to see change?
>> Regards,Bela Beke
>>
>> Suraj Kumar wrote:
>> > I get the feeling that the permaculture movement has morphed into a
>> > market place to sell books, DVDs and training courses related to
>> > permaculture than a platform for sharing techniques and allowing
>> > humans to live closer to nature in a simpler way. Many a material I
>> > find on the internet are incomplete and keep referring to "Stuff to
>> > Buy" or "Courses to Take". Just search for permaculture on youtube and
>> > that's what you find. Any site claiming to be a "permaculture" site
>> > talks about doing a course.
>> >
>> > Or am I mistaken? I'd love to be corrected if I'm mistaken.
>> >
>> > I remember some noble soul here who had setup permaculture.info - that
>> > is great! WTG! But, why do the 'experts' end up locking themselves
>> > into seclusion and not share their knowledge?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> >   -Suraj
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:37:02 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling
>       books, DVDs     and training courses?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4A42481E.9090708@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> paul wheaton wrote:
>> I know I spend at least a
>> couple of hours a day at permies.com.
>
> That's a great resource, Paul. Keep up the good work.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:11:40 +0530
> From: Suraj Kumar <suraj@sunson.in>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling
>       books,  DVDs    and training courses?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <bc5cb460906240841v44b567c0rf869ef4a7b3a6911@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<lflj@intrex.net>
> wrote:
>> Very good question, one that has been asked many times in the past. One
>> answer given: they need to retain
>> a certain amount of proprietary material, their own knowledgebases,
>> their information resources collected over
>> the years to use to earn a living through teaching appointments,
>> workshops PDC training courses they offer.
>> If they gave it all away noone would need to pay for coursework,
>> consultation and workshops they offered.
>
> Beg to differ. The Free Software movement revolutionised how people
> thought about software. This very question comes up to every person:
> "How can software be sold for free?". Mr.Richard Stallman actually
> made a living too. He wrote most of the useful parts of the GNU/Linux
> Operating System (popularly called "Linux" today). He used to live off
> making copies of his software and mailing it to people. Those who
> could download it off the internet, did so. Those who wanted it on
> tapes (those days) did so and paid him whatever they felt like. He
> also gets paid for his talks. BUT he never _asks_ for any specific
> money.
>
> Isn't "GNU/Linux" popular today? It has indeed revolutionised how
> people look at software.  I remember, when Stallman visited my little
> city in India. All he was paid was Rs.10,000/- from the university
> which organised his talks. Know what that translates to in USD?
> Roughly $500.
>
> Of course, it is true that he lived a much simpler life - like that of
> what Bill Mollison and Holmgren advocate and ask us to ponder about.
> "It isn't easy" is a shallow answer, IMO.
>
> Is it that one needs "discretionary money for expenditure"? Isn't it
> possible to meet those needs by oneself or within the community? Or is
> it unthinkable to question one's needs?
>
> All I'm saying is: People do pay if they find something useful. That
> is how Stallman made a living. If he could do services for others and
> earn a living, why can't permaculturists do the same too? Why is it
> that thoughts and ideas have become "property"?
>
>> Personally, I have always thought that more in-depth sharing of
>> information and resources through mailing lists
>> and wikis such as permaculture.info would stimulate business rather than
>> reduce it. Course they could always say "we're
>> not geting paid to share this material so why do it". Because it
>> stimulates business opportunities that would result in
>> greater income for them and add to their personal knowledgebase.
>
> I think I missed you on that. Do you mean to say that "Courses will
> die out if information is available for free?". Probably yes, but
> things will improve so fast, like it did with the Free Software
> movement and there will definitely be new avenues and opportunities.
>
> Anyway, my question was only meant to let people ponder. I'm not
> looking for justifications :)
>
> I personally decided to lead by example and just collect a community.
> Whether they want to pay me in kind or by money or by grains, I'll
> leave it to them. Afterall, if I can get self-sufficient, why would I
> need money?.. and afterall, how long can this money keep existing?
>
> Cheers,
>
>   -Suraj
>
> --
> "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
> our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
> Dr. Albert Bartlett
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:50:00 -0400
> From: "Michael Burns" <michael@fingerlakespermaculture.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling
>       books, DVDs and training        courses?
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <5a8df0aac4d193d9a9ebfb66fb2ff7e8.squirrel@mail.panix.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Suraj replied:
>
> "I personally decided to lead by example and just collect a community.
> Whether they want to pay me in kind or by money or by grains, I'll
> leave it to them. Afterall, if I can get self-sufficient, why would I
> need money?.. and afterall, how long can this money keep existing?"
>
> That's the spirit, if it works for you and your community. So they are
> paying
> you for permaculture work? Great, just like others do in many parts of the
> world. I hope the exchange spreads the word like "free" information on the
> internet.
>
> I have to ask: Why is your perception of permaculture limited to the
> internet?
> Besides, many people do donate their time, pay for internet service put up
> a
> lot of free information about permaculture. This is a very small sampling
> of
> permaculture resources: http://delicious.com/michaelgburns/permaculture.
> If
> you want free, stick to the internet and you will find plenty. In fact,
> much
> of the labor of many permaculture writers has been pirated and offered
> online
> if you know where to look and are comfortable with theft.
>
> Have you spent much time attempting to practice what you've read? Have you
> visited sites? Have you considered donating a large chunk of your time to
> work
> on a permaculture site? You might learn a lot if that is what you seek.
>
> Do you expect those who are designing and implementing permaculture sites
> to
> also donate their time to teach you? Regardless, they do. They bust their
> butts to organize, promote, and host dozens of strangers on their land.
> They
> pull themselves away from their homes, jobs, families and other
> obligations to
> teach (often two and a half weeks straight)and usually for pay that is
> much
> lower than what they earn on the job or land.
>
> While organizing PDCs, I have always encountered people who question why
> they
> should pay for the labor of their teachers or the food and facilities we
> set
> up for them. Likewise, I have also always been impressed and honored to
> have a
> team of teachers who devote so much time and energy towards preparing
> lessons,
> teaching, and earnestly reflecting and struggling to be better teachers,
> and
> rarely complaining about the sacrifices they give to make the courses a
> success.
>
> Using our local Permaculture Institute as an example... we know that many
> can't afford the full PDC. We also know that many can't afford the time
> either. So we offer weekend workshops, free presentations, book clubs, and
> other specialized programs. We just spent two days teaching dozens how to
> inoculate mushroom logs. Our total cost: $80 plus a lot of free labor,
> spawn
> and lumber from the teachers. Many of these students appreciated our work
> and
> gave donations which in turn subsidized other programs like our May to
> October
> apprentice program (another way to learn permaculture without spending
> much
> cash and actually immersing oneself into the subject more than a PDC!)
> Again,
> the success of these programs is partly based on the willingness of both
> the
> teachers and the students to give a great deal in order to teach and
> learn. It
> inspires me!
>
> If you Youtube and Google present you the world of permaculture then you
> are
> only getting a digital glimmer of permaculture as experienced by the vast
> minority of permaculture practioners who are lucky, wealthy enough or
> motivated to access these technologies. As one of those, I try to use the
> internet to reflect what is happening in real life. It is a reflection.
> These
> digital messages and resources are a brief moment's work that cannot fully
> represent the hours, materials, and pattern of life that moves anyone
> practicing and teaching permaculture.
>
> I would argue that the overwhelming majority of agricultural workers who
> have
> received permaculture instruction do not have an email account. Granted
> that
> nearly all of these people did not attend a course advertised on the
> internet
> and many did not pay either. Their courses were funded by development and
> aid
> organizations. Still, someone was paid something to teach, house and feed
> them.
>
> With all due respect, please consider that maybe you also need to step out
> of
> the cave to see what the "experts" are doing when they aren't posting,
> twittering, blogging or updating.  You maybe be unshackled and free enough
> to
> turn around and see more than shadows, but the light of the internet
> cannot
> tell the whole truth. Go see what the others are doing in the light of day
> and
> you won't resent the limitations of permaculture via the internet, and
> might
> see it as merely a useful reflection and pointer of permaculture work by a
> few.
>
>> I get the feeling that the permaculture movement has morphed into a
>> market
> place to sell books, DVDs and training courses related to permaculture
> than a
> platform for sharing techniques and allowing humans to live closer to
> nature
> in a simpler way. Many a material I find on the internet are incomplete
> and
> keep referring to "Stuff to Buy" or "Courses to Take". Just search for
> permaculture on youtube and that's what you find. Any site claiming to be
> a
> "permaculture" site talks about doing a course.
>>
>> Or am I mistaken? I'd love to be corrected if I'm mistaken.
>>
>> I remember some noble soul here who had setup permaculture.info - that
>> is
> great! WTG! But, why do the 'experts' end up locking themselves into
> seclusion
> and not share their knowledge?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>   -Suraj
>>
>> --
>> "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
>> our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
>> Dr. Albert Bartlett
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Michael Burns
> http://www.cayuta.org
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Earn your permaculture design certificate.
> The Finger Lakes Permaculture Institute
> offers affordable local classes.
> http://www.fingerlakespermaculture.org
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:07:07 -0700
> From: Jocelyn Campbell <jocecampbell@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why is permaculture more about selling
>       books,  DVDs    and training courses?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <2a9e509c0906240907k4252ca66l874db976b2a1c12@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Others have replied more eloquently before I could send this off--great
> discussion!--but I'm sending my simple thoughts any way.
>
> Suraj Kumar wrote:
>> I get the feeling that the permaculture movement has morphed into a
>> market place to sell books, DVDs and training courses related to
>> permaculture  <snip!>
>> I remember some noble soul here who had setup permaculture.info - that
>> is great! WTG!
>
> I'm a newbie to permaculture (and a n00b, too, I guess!), but isn't part
> of
> it the complexity of permaculture that makes it difficult to share
> information?
> On Paul's permies.com, sometimes folks ask about where to start, or what
> to
> put in a certain plant guild, and it's incredibly difficult to define that
> for someone else. Probably best not to.
>
> The upside of the commercial aspect of permaculture is that the books,
> DVDs
> and more and more courses mean the info is getting out there to more
> people.
> And possibly that more people can make a living through permaculture.
> These
> are good things, aren't they?
>
> It's not like sharing information on how to bake gluten free. There is a
> finite list of GF flours (maybe a dozen or two), and a handful of tricks
> on
> how to get them to work satisfactorily, but it's pretty simple and there's
> lots of free information out there. Permaculture is like trying to teach
> someone to bake GF with hundreds or even thousands of flours (flowers,
> ha!),
> hundreds of methods to get them to work together better, not to mention
> how
> the gazillions of kitchen micro-climates might affect the baking. How do
> you
> share that without a class, a course, a book or a DVD, or loooong
> discussions either in person or through web forums?
>
> Just my initial impression as a fascinated newbie.
>
> Peace,
>
> Jocelyn
>
> --
> Eco Events   |   QuickBooks   |   Accounting   |   206.779.3707
> Cascadia Eco Workshops Calendar <http://www.jocelynsevents.com>  |
> www.jocelyncampbell.com
>
> ~~please think twice before printing this or any e-mail~~
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 77, Issue 22
> ********************************************
>