permaculture

[Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>]

No Jim, I don't know this book. It just struck me that the following
  passage could also have come from a corporate PR leaflet:
   
  >For small-farm enterprises, the path to new wealth
>lies in growing market-centered, high-value, labor-intensive
>cash crops. To accomplish this, poor farmers need access to
>affordable irrigation, a new generation of farming methods and
>inputs customized to fit tiny farms, the creation of vibrant new
>markets that bring them the seeds and fertilizers they need, and
>open access to markets where small acreage farmers can sell
>their products at a profit. 
   
  Whatever happened to the idea of using your own seeds and not
  relying on external inputs such as fertilizers?
   
  I don't know if what follows is just jargon or if it actually has a 
  meaning. Again, sounds a bit like straight from a marketing
  campaign sheet.
   
  >This range of new products and
>services for poor customers can only be created by a revolution
>in current design practice, based on the ruthless pursuit of
>affordability.
   
  Good idea about snipping quoted text, it's a lot easier on the eyes
  that way.
   
  Dieter Brand
  Portugal

       
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Lawrence,
   
  I thought my original message in the thread "lactoferments" which changed
  to "conservatism" didn't make it to the list. I only noticed now, when 
looking
  at the archives, that it did and that it generated a lively debate which 
I'm very 
  sorry to have missed. In fact, I noticed that I didn't get most of the 
messages 
  from the permaculture list in the last few weeks. Is there anything that 
can 
  be done about this?
   
  David, et al.,
   
  Regarding the debate, I agree that it is the small things all of us can do 
that 
  can make a difference. In fact, that has been a determining conviction in my
  life for the last 40 years. However, I also believe that it is not healthy 
to 
  barricade ourselves in a cosy little ecological or permaculture corner. 
Nothing
  is going to bring back the idyllic life of medieval villages, if that ever 
was idyllic.
  And if we like it or not, mainstream society with all its big bad 
corporations
  is going to determine how we will live in the future. A mental frame seeing
  the World in simplistic black and white shades with the good (us) on one 
side
  and the bad (society with its evil corporations) on the other is not 
productive 
  and is completely beside the point.
   
  Lets just for the fun of it consider the opposite scenario. The 
corporations 
  can be very effective at devising methods and means for saving energy and
  resources squandered by traditional technologies.  They just need to be 
  directed that way by political processes, which is not achieved by talk of
  “imperial elections”. Present day pluralistic society, no matter what you
  call it, has more potential for change to adapt to changing circumstances
  than any past model, be it tribalism, feudalism, Stalinism or you name it.
  Utopian ideas in history, no matter how well intentioned, unfortunately 
  always degenerated into bloodshed and repression usually worse then the 
  tyranny they supplanted. And I don't believe for one moment that any of the 
  fundamentalist ideas bandied about today would be any less bloody.  
  Humans or the mechanisms of life are just too complex to be pressed into 
  any simple system.  Systems need to evolve naturally.  Obviously there 
  is need for direction - watch that the big guys don't take all, but a 
closet 
  mentally is not suitable for solving future problems.
   
  Having said that, there are obviously problems that at the moment seem
  too momentous to be solved within present models. Most of all economic 
  growth.  How and with what can we replace economic growth as the driving 
  force in the economy.  Again, solutions will be with society and the 
  corporations, not against them.  To be gleeful about pending doom that 
  would justify our resentments towards society is not very, well, ...
   
  I better stop rambling since I don’t have the feeling that I manage to 
  express what I want to say very well. Anyway, nice to see you folks 
  involved in a discussions.
   
  >...making oddly definitive claims about how capitalism, corporatism, or 
any 
  >other aspect of business-as-usual is "just the way it is" or "all that 
we've got" 
  >or "here to stay". It's really interesting (and at times frustrating) to 
see such 
  >extremely conservative notions finding widespread acceptance among an 
  >otherwise farsighted and "big picture"-oriented movement. - David
   
  This reminds me of smoke filled rooms in 1968 and being labelled a lackey
  of the bourgeoisie by Maoists with their little red book. I have never had 
to
  change my basic convictions, they had to change theirs. When it become 
  too distasteful to justify the millions of deaths left behind by the red 
guards, 
  they turned to more rewarding pursuits in politics or commerce. There are 
  turns and twists in any life, but I have never compromised my believe in a 
  more humane and peaceful society.
   
  Dieter Brand
  Portugal
   

       
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>From liberationecology@gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 18:31:12 2008
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Hello, Dieter - welcome back to the debate you triggered!

Thanks so much for writing:
"... it is not healthy to
   barricade ourselves in a cosy little ecological or permaculture  
corner. Nothing
   is going to bring back the idyllic life of medieval villages, if  
that ever was idyllic."

That is a much-needed counterweight to the "Pc life raft" mentality  
that persistently frames discussion in the Pc community.

What I don't see is how that leads to the idea that we should  
accommodate ourselves to corporate power. You set up a strawman  
argument here: I explicitly disavow a black & white worldview in my  
earlier post on this topic, and David agrees with me.

Far from having "degenerated into bloodshed and repression usually  
worse then the tyranny they supplanted," idealist, radical, utopian  
thinkers and movements have been the ONLY forces in society that have  
succeeded in securing basic human rights. This despite their militant  
confrontation with the status quo, and arguably because of it.  
Radical debate, struggle, and even confrontation, expand the  
boundaries of the debate, and create the space in which the demands  
of more moderate progressive elements become acceptable. Check out  
the Abolitionists, the Suffragettes, the labor movement (particularly  
AFL/CIO), the US civil rights movement, the Indian anti-colonial  
struggle, etc. etc.

It is, unfortunately, a popular distortion of the historical record  
to claim the opposite. Yes, utopian movements have failed to produce  
utopia. Would you dismiss them on those grounds, in the face of all  
that we owe them, rather than oppose corporate power for what it is  
succeeding so well at - i.e. concentrating wealth and power, and all  
the social and ecological consequences that entails?

I heartily agree with you when you say:
"there are obviously problems that at the moment seem too momentous  
to be solved within present models.
Most of all economic growth.  How and with what can we replace  
economic growth as the driving
   force in the economy."

But how in the world does that lead to the conclusion that the  
solutions will maintain some version of corporate structure &  
commodity production?

Like David, I'm not insisting that we have to decide, a priori, that  
our strategies for change have to exclude any traces of the commodity  
economy and corporate institutions. But if I do the opposite, and  
decide a priori, without any real evidence, that they are permanent  
fixtures of human society, I immediately limit myself to a fairly  
narrow window of possible plans, possible futures. Even more  
importantly, by marginalizing those who do oppose corporate/commodity  
economics, we all sacrifice our bargaining position as a people - as  
a planet full of actual, not corporate, persons.

In other words, even if I want a compromise with corporate power, I'm  
shooting myself in the foot if I exclude from the debate those who  
militantly oppose it.

I would include, as attempted exclusion, the red-baiting you  
unfortunately descend to as a closing to your email. This is the only  
part of your email that strays from polite debate, and it makes a  
troubling footnote to the rest of your argument. No one here is  
accusing you of being a lackey of anything, and no one is justifying  
authoritarian misrule and famine, nor is anyone belatedly  
backpedaling from such a stance.

I plead guilty, though, to the insinuation that I might examine and  
re-consider my beliefs as I go through life. It's easy to never  
compromise a belief as vague and middle-of-the-road as "a more human  
and peaceful society." It's when I take stand on a contentious,  
complex, or practical issues that I have to evaluate and re-evaluate  
my position. There is no shame in it - quite the opposite. Pointing  
to the deaths of millions in China and crowing about how you never  
had to change your mind is just offensive. The implication that  
present-day opponents of corporate power are in some analogous  
position to early supporters of Mao is utterly counterproductive.

Last paragraph aside, I appreciate the arguments you are bringing to  
the forum, and the debate they are stimulating. Thank you.

best,
rafter t. sass
The Liberation Ecology Project
liberationecology.org
518-567-7407
skype: raughter