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  • From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Out of Poverty: Design for the Other 90% ?
  • Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 02:12:04 -0800 (PST)

No Jim, I don't know this book. It just struck me that the following
passage could also have come from a corporate PR leaflet:

>For small-farm enterprises, the path to new wealth
>lies in growing market-centered, high-value, labor-intensive
>cash crops. To accomplish this, poor farmers need access to
>affordable irrigation, a new generation of farming methods and
>inputs customized to fit tiny farms, the creation of vibrant new
>markets that bring them the seeds and fertilizers they need, and
>open access to markets where small acreage farmers can sell
>their products at a profit.

Whatever happened to the idea of using your own seeds and not
relying on external inputs such as fertilizers?

I don't know if what follows is just jargon or if it actually has a
meaning. Again, sounds a bit like straight from a marketing
campaign sheet.

>This range of new products and
>services for poor customers can only be created by a revolution
>in current design practice, based on the ruthless pursuit of
>affordability.

Good idea about snipping quoted text, it's a lot easier on the eyes
that way.

Dieter Brand
Portugal


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>From diebrand@yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 15:31:30 2008
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Subject: [permaculture] Conservatism revisited
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Lawrence,

I thought my original message in the thread "lactoferments" which changed
to "conservatism" didn't make it to the list. I only noticed now, when
looking
at the archives, that it did and that it generated a lively debate which
I'm very
sorry to have missed. In fact, I noticed that I didn't get most of the
messages
from the permaculture list in the last few weeks. Is there anything that
can
be done about this?

David, et al.,

Regarding the debate, I agree that it is the small things all of us can do
that
can make a difference. In fact, that has been a determining conviction in my
life for the last 40 years. However, I also believe that it is not healthy
to
barricade ourselves in a cosy little ecological or permaculture corner.
Nothing
is going to bring back the idyllic life of medieval villages, if that ever
was idyllic.
And if we like it or not, mainstream society with all its big bad
corporations
is going to determine how we will live in the future. A mental frame seeing
the World in simplistic black and white shades with the good (us) on one
side
and the bad (society with its evil corporations) on the other is not
productive
and is completely beside the point.

Lets just for the fun of it consider the opposite scenario. The
corporations
can be very effective at devising methods and means for saving energy and
resources squandered by traditional technologies. They just need to be
directed that way by political processes, which is not achieved by talk of
“imperial elections”. Present day pluralistic society, no matter what you
call it, has more potential for change to adapt to changing circumstances
than any past model, be it tribalism, feudalism, Stalinism or you name it.
Utopian ideas in history, no matter how well intentioned, unfortunately
always degenerated into bloodshed and repression usually worse then the
tyranny they supplanted. And I don't believe for one moment that any of the
fundamentalist ideas bandied about today would be any less bloody.
Humans or the mechanisms of life are just too complex to be pressed into
any simple system. Systems need to evolve naturally. Obviously there
is need for direction - watch that the big guys don't take all, but a
closet
mentally is not suitable for solving future problems.

Having said that, there are obviously problems that at the moment seem
too momentous to be solved within present models. Most of all economic
growth. How and with what can we replace economic growth as the driving
force in the economy. Again, solutions will be with society and the
corporations, not against them. To be gleeful about pending doom that
would justify our resentments towards society is not very, well, ...

I better stop rambling since I don’t have the feeling that I manage to
express what I want to say very well. Anyway, nice to see you folks
involved in a discussions.

>...making oddly definitive claims about how capitalism, corporatism, or
any
>other aspect of business-as-usual is "just the way it is" or "all that
we've got"
>or "here to stay". It's really interesting (and at times frustrating) to
see such
>extremely conservative notions finding widespread acceptance among an
>otherwise farsighted and "big picture"-oriented movement. - David

This reminds me of smoke filled rooms in 1968 and being labelled a lackey
of the bourgeoisie by Maoists with their little red book. I have never had
to
change my basic convictions, they had to change theirs. When it become
too distasteful to justify the millions of deaths left behind by the red
guards,
they turned to more rewarding pursuits in politics or commerce. There are
turns and twists in any life, but I have never compromised my believe in a
more humane and peaceful society.

Dieter Brand
Portugal



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>From liberationecology@gmail.com Sun Feb 17 18:31:12 2008
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Hello, Dieter - welcome back to the debate you triggered!

Thanks so much for writing:
"... it is not healthy to
barricade ourselves in a cosy little ecological or permaculture
corner. Nothing
is going to bring back the idyllic life of medieval villages, if
that ever was idyllic."

That is a much-needed counterweight to the "Pc life raft" mentality
that persistently frames discussion in the Pc community.

What I don't see is how that leads to the idea that we should
accommodate ourselves to corporate power. You set up a strawman
argument here: I explicitly disavow a black & white worldview in my
earlier post on this topic, and David agrees with me.

Far from having "degenerated into bloodshed and repression usually
worse then the tyranny they supplanted," idealist, radical, utopian
thinkers and movements have been the ONLY forces in society that have
succeeded in securing basic human rights. This despite their militant
confrontation with the status quo, and arguably because of it.
Radical debate, struggle, and even confrontation, expand the
boundaries of the debate, and create the space in which the demands
of more moderate progressive elements become acceptable. Check out
the Abolitionists, the Suffragettes, the labor movement (particularly
AFL/CIO), the US civil rights movement, the Indian anti-colonial
struggle, etc. etc.

It is, unfortunately, a popular distortion of the historical record
to claim the opposite. Yes, utopian movements have failed to produce
utopia. Would you dismiss them on those grounds, in the face of all
that we owe them, rather than oppose corporate power for what it is
succeeding so well at - i.e. concentrating wealth and power, and all
the social and ecological consequences that entails?

I heartily agree with you when you say:
"there are obviously problems that at the moment seem too momentous
to be solved within present models.
Most of all economic growth. How and with what can we replace
economic growth as the driving
force in the economy."

But how in the world does that lead to the conclusion that the
solutions will maintain some version of corporate structure &
commodity production?

Like David, I'm not insisting that we have to decide, a priori, that
our strategies for change have to exclude any traces of the commodity
economy and corporate institutions. But if I do the opposite, and
decide a priori, without any real evidence, that they are permanent
fixtures of human society, I immediately limit myself to a fairly
narrow window of possible plans, possible futures. Even more
importantly, by marginalizing those who do oppose corporate/commodity
economics, we all sacrifice our bargaining position as a people - as
a planet full of actual, not corporate, persons.

In other words, even if I want a compromise with corporate power, I'm
shooting myself in the foot if I exclude from the debate those who
militantly oppose it.

I would include, as attempted exclusion, the red-baiting you
unfortunately descend to as a closing to your email. This is the only
part of your email that strays from polite debate, and it makes a
troubling footnote to the rest of your argument. No one here is
accusing you of being a lackey of anything, and no one is justifying
authoritarian misrule and famine, nor is anyone belatedly
backpedaling from such a stance.

I plead guilty, though, to the insinuation that I might examine and
re-consider my beliefs as I go through life. It's easy to never
compromise a belief as vague and middle-of-the-road as "a more human
and peaceful society." It's when I take stand on a contentious,
complex, or practical issues that I have to evaluate and re-evaluate
my position. There is no shame in it - quite the opposite. Pointing
to the deaths of millions in China and crowing about how you never
had to change your mind is just offensive. The implication that
present-day opponents of corporate power are in some analogous
position to early supporters of Mao is utterly counterproductive.

Last paragraph aside, I appreciate the arguments you are bringing to
the forum, and the debate they are stimulating. Thank you.

best,
rafter t. sass
The Liberation Ecology Project
liberationecology.org
518-567-7407
skype: raughter








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