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  • From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Similarities between the Jesus Movement atitsorigin and the
  • Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 04:00:34 -0800 (PST)

Vital,

Points well taken.

I said that "love thy ..." was a simple social precept
(meaning: not complex like the European Constitution for
example). I didn't say that is was easy to practice.

Romantic notions of utopian societies where the lamb
will sit alongside the lion are all very fine as far as they
go, yet things never work out quite like that, do they?

Don't you think that the founders of socialism didn't have
the highest ideals and (at least in their opinion) the best
way of achieving paradise on Earth? They certainly didn't
intended it all to culminate in Stalin's Gulag or to end
in the massive waste of state planned socialism.


It is the prerogative of youth to live out an idealistic élan,
yet reason is needed to keep it all from degenerating into
chaos and destruction, of which there are too many
examples in history for me to list here.

You want to give every unemployed a piece of land?
Get real! I live in a region that used to be home to a great
number of small farmers. There is hardly anybody left.
They all leave for the city as soon as they can get a buyer
for their land, many even before that. The young certainly
don't want to stay on the land. Much too hard to make a
living. I can live here because I have a second job which
allows me to survive even if there is a crop failure. And
since I spent my live in the major capitals of this World,
I do appreciate the remoteness and am willing to put up
with innumerable inconveniences. But I don't blame others
for seeking the comfort of the cities.

I didn't intend to misrepresent your lines, anyway not
more than necessary to get my point across ;-) And
I'm certainly not a hardliner of any description.

Sorry if I can’t resist the urge to use a little irony here
or there. I know I shouldn’t, since irony like humour
doesn’t travel easily across national or cultural boundaries.

In neighbourly love,

Dieter


Vital Scherrer <vital233@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dieter,

I agree with you that love is more than a fleeting "emotion" - it's my
failure that I didn't mention its possibly most important motivating quality
- though obviously and unfortunately too often it is just that too. But then
again, aren't all feelings more than just something transitory and fleeting
as well?

I don't agree with you though that to "Love thy neighbour" is simple. It is
simple to command it, but a whole different story to do it. Would we have
social conflicts if it would be simple?

Of course I didn't mean "sharing" in a sense of a politically centralistic
dictator-socialism, which was forced upon people. Just like capitalism, it
only works with understanding, if people don't feel forced and if the
majority support it. Not to mention that people without a piece of land, are
basically forced to serve the industries and other employers. It's just so
subtle that obviously most people are not aware of this fact.

>"To give everybody a piece of land to grow
> their own food on, sounds like a gigantic waste that could
> easily dwarf even the worst excesses of socialism and
> capitalism combined. Most would not and could not grow
> their own food."

Why could they not (learn to) grow their own food, with some help of a
suitable task force and plant material, instead of unemployment payments?
Your are giving rather little credit to the unemployed. - It seems like you
are associating some rather awkward emotions with this topic.

...Nor did I mention any trampling 20th century tourists, which might, by
doing so, destroy the basis of life. In other words, I wrote about a kind of
transformation of the fertile lands into a food jungle - which is what
permaculturists do anyway, right? - where people could stroll, discover and
see more of this planet, whatever you would call it. The word "ravishing"
may not necessarily be a good choice.

But I admit this must sound a bit too far fetched - still - or like science
fiction, especially for settler- and planter hardliners.

I just hope you are the only one who misinterpreted my lines. If anybody
else didn't get the picture, I'll be glad to explain.

Vital


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