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  • From: rhonda.b@insightbb.com
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] what is "politics" exactly...?/capitalism
  • Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:54:21 -0500

Hi all,

I put this out on my local guild list and was encouraged to put it out here .
. . . It fits with the thread below and I'm also curious to see what
responses it generates.

blessings,
Rhonda Baird
Bloomington, Indiana


rhonda.b@insightbb.com wrote:
> A corporation will swallow a 10% loss in revenue unhappily, but at
> what point does it falter? 20%, 30%? 50%? At what point, would it make
> a change? How fast could it happen? And with the increasing
> instability in our systems, how swift might this change be? I suspect,
> eventually, they will bring themselves down. For over a decade [I'm in my
> early 30's], I've
> been railing against the corporations, and someone asked me ten years ago
> what I
> would put in their place. Vibrant local economies. Trade, farming,
> craftsmanship and artisans. I would like to see these things given
> more of a chance to operate sustainably.  I don't know whether the
> system will evolve fast enough or not, but that's where I would like
> to put my energy. Others need to do different work and all of the work
> is synergistic. Each of you, as part of the guild and the myriad of
> choices you make each day, is a part of it. And it is happening. I
> think we would all agree, though that a lot more needs to be done.
> Rhonda

----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Vlaun <scott@moosepondarts.com>
Date: Monday, December 10, 2007 16:38
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what is "politics" exactly...?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>

> Scott,
>
> I really appreciate the thoughts below and your commitment
> to 
> changing the system. As someone who has worked for Seeds of
> Change 
> for many years promoting organic seeds, I often struggle with
> issues 
> about capitalism that you bring up below, no matter how
> important the 
> overall mission of the company.  Since you, and other
> leading 
> permaculturists have also worked for SOC and its parent company
> M&M 
> Mars on Permaculture and sustainable production projects, how do
> you 
> see that as different than what Hawken, McDonough and others
> have 
> done to reform industrial capitalist enterprises?
>
> It seems like we need to be working on all fronts; to stem the
> tide 
> and change the paradigm. Having that kind of capital to make
> big 
> projects happen isn't perfect, but it can be useful.
>
>
>
> Scott Vlaun
> Moose Pond Arts+Ecology
> Design Solutions for a Sustainable Future
>
> 450 Main St. Studio 2
> Norway, Maine 04268
> 207-739-2409 Studio
> 207-890-4099 Cell
> http://www.moosepondarts.com
>
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2007, at 2:09 PM, Scott Pittman wrote:
>
> > This is a great thread and I want to add my two bits later but
> for 
> > now I
> > would like to point out several of the people/books referenced
> by 
> > Keith in
> > his list that I have trouble with.
> >
> > Amory Lovins, Paul Hawkins, William McDonough, and to some
> extent the
> > Natural Step are all proponents of capitalism in a revised
> form.  
> > They are
> > dangerous in my mind because they don't question the economic
> order 
> > but
> > rather look to a reformed industrial state that will pollute
> less 
> > or be more
> > energy conserving but don't question the very roots of the
> system.  
> > In my
> > mind they are incredible dangerous because they allow people
> to 
> > feel good
> > about the current arrangement so that they can continue
> to 
> > participate.
> > It's like looking to biofuels to solve peak oil and then
> not 
> > dealing with
> > our systems of transport and industrial processes.  To
> have "good" 
> > guys like
> > Al Gore internationally flogging biofuels and florescent bulbs
> as the
> > solution to Global Warming creates warm feelings of false
> security, 
> > and set
> > us back enormously.
> >
> > Paul Hawkin and a past hero of mine Lester Brown (founder
> of 
> > Worldwatch
> > Institute) are both now looking to bio-technology (I read gmo
> food) 
> > as a
> > solution to some of our problems.
> >
> > William McDonough excites everyone because of his Ford
> plant 
> > makeover that
> > is solar oriented and lessens the waste stream.  I'm
> not 
> > overwhelmed with
> > this accomplishment when the men and women on the assembly
> lines in 
> > these
> > architectural wonders are still doing the same mindless and
> soul 
> > eroding
> > jobs.
> >
> > As I have mentioned before on this list I think there are a
> limits 
> > to growth
> > in industry just as there are in nature and that once you
> exceed those
> > limits you lose sustainability.  It a tree branches one
> too many 
> > times it
> > starves the last addition because of viscosity.  Our
> industrial 
> > machine
> > overcomes this by adding more energy (fuel) with the
> predictable 
> > outcome of
> > pollution, lack of care of people and depletion of
> resources.  It 
> > is built
> > into the system.
> >
> > Capitalism by its very nature cannot be "Green".
> >
> > I would much rather see Ivan Illich on this list!
> >
> > Scott Pittman
> > Director
> > Permaculture Institute
> > www.permaculture.org
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Keith Johnson [mailto:keithdj@mindspring.com]
> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:48 AM
> > To: permaculture
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] what is "politics" exactly...?
> >
> > Stimulated by Paul Cereghino's assertion (or recommendation) that
> >
> >     Permaculture design (even as applied
> to politics) should focus on
> > analysis of actual processes and phenomena, flows, source,
> sink, 
> > etc...
> >
> >
> > I Googled Ecology of  Politics and Political Ecology to
> see what 
> > was out
> > there that might correspond with Permacultural perspectives
> and found,
> > not surprisingly,  an interconnected web of familiar
> thoughts, people,
> > books, theory and practice including:
> >
> >     Social Ecology: In response to the
> social and ecological crisis in
> >     which we find ourselves immersed,
> social ecology advocates a
> >     reconstructive approach that promotes
> a directly democratic,
> >     confederal politics. As a body of
> ideas, social ecology 
> > envisions *a
> >     moral economy that moves beyond
> scarcity and hierarchy toward a
> >     world that fully celebrates diversity*.
> >
> >         Social ecology
> is, in the words of its leading exponents, "a
> >         coherent
> profound critique of current social, political, and
> >         anti-
> ecological trends" as well as "a *reconstructive,
> >         ecological,
> communitarian, and ethical approach to society*".
> >
> >         What literally
> defines social ecology as "social" is its
> >         recognition of
> the often overlooked fact that *nearly all our
> >         present
> ecological problems arise from deep-seated social
> >         problems*.
> Conversely, present ecological problems cannot be
> >         clearly
> understood, much less resolved, without resolutely
> >         dealing with
> problems within society. To make this point more
> >         concrete:
> *economic, ethnic, cultural, and gender conflicts,
> >         among many
> others, lie at the core of the most serious
> >         ecological
> dislocations we face today*--apart, to be sure, 
> > from
> >         those that are
> produced by natural catastrophes.
> >
> >     Ivan Illich (who distinguishes between
> /environment as commons /
> > from
> >     the /environment as resource)
> >
> >     /Political ecology (which Wikipedia
> defines as) the study of how
> >     political, economic, and social
> factors affect environmental 
> > issues.
> >     The majority of studies analyze the
> influence that society, state,
> >     corporate, and transnational powers
> have on environmental problems
> >     and influencing environmental policy.
> There are many approaches to
> >     these issues, and some scholars give
> weight to the role that 
> > access
> >     to natural resources plays in
> structuring political and economic
> >     life: particularly how land
> degradation, 'fortress'-style wildlife
> >     conservation, or deforestation
> influences a range of social
> >     relations and politics.
> >
> >     A number of books (for which I have
> created a new category at
> >     Permaculture Trading Post called Eco-
> Politics>    
> <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20?%
> > 5Fencoding=UTF8&node=32>
> >     and invite you to suggest other titles
> to add)
> >
> >     Deep Ecology
> >
> >     Noam Chomsky
> >
> >     Dave Foreman (Earth First)
> >
> >     Peter Kropotkin
> >
> >     Eco-socialism
> >
> >     Inclusive Democracy
> >
> >     Green syndicalism
> >
> >     Ecofeminism
> >
> >     Gaia philosophy
> >
> >     Greens
> >
> >     Anarcho-primitivism
> >
> >     Bioregionalism
> >
> > <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20/detail/
> > 0520236289/105-6154186-766
> > 5265>
> >
> >     Ecopsychology (what Mollison was
> teaching when he met David
> >     Holmgren, I've been told).
> >
> >     Thomas Berry
> >
> >     Appropriate technology
> >
> >     Joanna Macy
> >
> >     Anti-Globalization
> >
> >     Amory Lovins
> >
> >     William McDonough
> >
> > <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20/detail/
> > 0865475873/105-6154186-766
> > 5265>
> >
> >     Paul Hawken and Natural Capitalism
> >
> > <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20/detail/
> > 0316353000/105-6154186-766
> > 5265>
> >
> >     The Natural Step
> >
> >     Derrick Jensen
> >    
> <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20?%
> > 5Fencoding=UTF8&node=29>
> >
> >     Jarred Diamond
> >
> >     Vandana Shiva
> >
> >     Arundhati Roy
> >
> >     E.O. Wilson
> >
> >     ...and much more. If Permaculture
> represents "the connecting
> >     science", these provide many
> opportunities to connect the dots and
> >     build bridges between our local
> cultures and the living planet.
> >
> > Paul Cereghino wrote:
> >>> Permaculture design (even as applied to politics) should
> focus on
> >>> analysis of actual processes and phenomena.  Flows,
> source, sink,
> >>> etc...  If natural systems are are the source of
> inspiration for
> >>> ecological design, what is the source of inspiration for political
> > design.
> >>>
> >>> More critically... what is the effective transitional system from
> >>> current state to target state (least work greatest effect).
> >>>
> > --
> > Keith Johnson
> > "Be fruitful and mulch apply."
> > Permaculture Activist Magazine
> > PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407
> > (812) 335-0383
> > http://www.permacultureactivist.net
> > http://www.PermacultureTradingPost.com
> > Switch to Solar Power the Easy Way
> > http://www.jointhesolution.com/KeithJ-SunPower
> > http://www.PowUr.com/KeithJ-SunPower
> > Blog: http://kjpermaculture.blogspot.com/
> > also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
> > http://www.permacultureactivist.net/design/Designconsult.html
> > also Association for Regenerative Culture
> > http://www.ARCulture.org
> > also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum
> Local 
> > Economy) It's a
> > small world after oil.
> > http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
> > also Bloomington Permaculture Guild
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
> >
> >
>
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