permaculture

[Linda Shewan <linda.shewan@bryn.com.au>]

Slugs, snails, slugs...

We moved to our current home 3 years ago and any seedling I planted out was 
immediately demolished by slugs and snails. After 1 year I put in a 1.5 metre 
square pond with lots of plants in it... azolla, watercress, mints, water 
chestnuts (too cold to harvest but they grow), arrowhead etc.

That year the damage was the same, last year it was reduced and this year I 
have just planted out mustard, broccoli, cauliflower and salad greens and 
none of them have been touched! It is very early in spring (actually not 
officially spring for a few more days but we are having incredibly warm 
weather so thought I would get them out a bit early). So as it warms more I 
guess I might have more of a problem but I am encouraged thus far!

I think water, well actually frogs, is the key... but it will take a couple 
of years to get the ecosystem in balance so maybe some of the animal options 
in conjunction?

I have also trained my chooks to eat slugs and snails this week. Previously 
they wouldn't touch them so I withheld their grain for a few days and then 
fed them slugs and baby snails instead... now they think they are the best 
food in the world! Still struggling with the large snails but they give it a 
good try!

Linda
Victoria, Australia



-----Original Message-----
From: Gaian Life [mailto:eco@gaianlife.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, 24 August 2007 4:42 AM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture poultry & pigs

Bearing in mind that the people who told us that we must all use pesticides
& herbicides and dig over the earth whenever possible, are the same people
that happen to sell pesticides and spades, I am somewhat wary of the
'expert' advice books out there. And would like some REAL advice from you
guys.

I am about to move to a new smallholding and will be converting it to a
'wild food' teaching farm. Previously I couldn't keep animals on the land I
was on and so the 'too many slugs' battle could not be solved by 'more
ducks'. Now however I am excitedly planning the animal components of the new
farm:
When weighing up pros and cons (multiple outputs), I decided that I wanted 2
major outputs with regards to pest control....something that eats slugs (we
are plagued with them!) and also something that will eat small insects &
insect eggs (especially snail eggs). This means I am thinking of at least 2
types of animals unless someone suggests something that eats both!
If I go for pigs, I hear they happily eat slugs and then I also get meat &
weed clearance provided however no fur/wool or milk (or can pig milk be
used?).
Goats & sheep give the weed clearance, fertiliser, wool & milk, but do they
eat slugs? Wool wise I could also choose alpacas, but being taller they may
pose a problem to fenced/trellised crops. Ducks I hear also eat slugs but i
would have to create a pond for them first so it will take a while to get
that in place.

On the small insect front....quails or chickens. I am tempted towards quails
because of their faster breeding & growth rates and also greater laying
rates (the eggs although 4x smaller are more nutritious). Couple that with
their much smaller food requirement (and particle ingestion size) and I
think quails may be able to mop up small insects whilst leaving my worms in
place if left to forage amongst crops and would also not damage upper leaves
or scratch at roots as much as chickens.

Any comments on the above gratefully recieved, for all I know quails may be
right little terrors while foraging!.

On to the crux of the matter.....looking after the animals. According to the
'expert' sources, chickens for example must NEVER be fed on waste veg
scraps, must live in thousand dollar hen runs and must be pumped with every
vaccine & antibiotic under the sun on a regular basis. Not very
permaculture! I am assuming this advice is perpetuated by the people who
make the aforementioned vaccines.
Having travelled fairly widely, I have seen 'stuffing it under your armpit &
feeding it scraps from the gutter' used as a chicken keeping method in some
countries, not that I am suggesting i do this, more I mean that there is
patently NOT a need to bathe your flock weekly in red mite powder or some
other concotion.

My question then is, can anyone give me, or tell me a good source for advice
on permaculture animal keeping. Obviously I want my animals to be healthy
and happy so are there good feed plants to use to ward off all the diseases
etc and keep the immune systems up? Suggestions for a good varied diet?
Garlic perhaps?
Would a mixed flock or a few ducks & chickens be the best bet? Can chickens
be mixed with quails or do they peck each other? How much of a
chickens/ducks/quails diet can be supplied by foraging or is it still
necessary to either stockpile suitable grain feed or buy it in?

Another big consideration is the currently unstable situation with regards
Avian Influenza. The virus itself doesn't worry me so much, rather the
politics of the issue. In the UK there has been mention of banning free
range and organic flocks (whilst obviously allowing good old Bernard
Matthews to continue importing infected Hungarian birds and farming his
infected flock & to re-open his infected abattoir less than 24hrs after the
outbreak was first detected...OK I better stop, I feel a rant coming on!).
Anyway due to politics, poultry may be a problem if we get any more recorded
outbreaks here in the UK.

So what are your views? What animal combinations and rearing methods work
well for you guys? Where can I find a sensible info source on animal keeping
and diseases etc?

Cheers Guys!

Helen

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