permaculture

["Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@intrex.net>]

Robyn Francis wrote:

> The Indian vegetarian diet is big on dairy products. Manure is used for
> fertiliser, rendering earth walls and as an important source of cooking fuel
> (as dried pads). Most of the vegans I know boycott all animal products,
> including honey. Vegetarians however will generally consume animal products
> that don't involve killing an animal like dairy products, eggs, honey etc.
>
> BTW The uncontrolled feral cow population in India is huge environmental
> problem contributing seriously to desertification. (There aren't enough
> tigers to naturally control the cow populations anymore...)

But they collectively drop enough manure to provide fuel to cook many of them 
with.
Get out the grill, environmental problem solved, happy well-fed campers.

> Interestingly, Bali is also a Hindu culture and has a unique small breed of
> Balinese cow. They actually eat their cows as a sacred food and don't milk
> them or use dairy products.

Makes more sense.

> I personally have a problem with vegans wanting to exclude animals from
> nature and animal manures from food production. Human systems are part of
> nature, not separate. It's anti-ecology to discriminate against animals in
> the system. It really comes down to humane treatment of animals and
> integrating them to support plant-based production and land management
> systems, which are both primary aims of animal systems in permaculture.  I
> think a lot vegans & vego's are simply reacting to the horrendous nature of
> inhumane commercial animal production systems. 

Here's something I wrote about a few days ago after hearing a remarkable 
interview with a lady pig farmer in Oz.
-
Whether they know it or not the Averys are the laughingstock of world 
agriculture, certified organic or not,
just plain growing food the best way possible for the highest quality product to meet the demands of a lucrative export 
market. Read: pure, clean, natural, nutritious, delicious pork grown free range on a highly organized "factory" farm 
(10K pigs max) in Australia. The other night the BBC radio did a long segment on such a farm. They interviewed the 
farm's owner, a woman, one of the most intelligent, articulate, well-informed, skillful farmers I have ever heard speak 
- she is totally on top of every detail of her operation - meat with NO residues raised in a pristine environment - 
manure falls into natural litter to be composted in situ for recycling - disease monitored scrupulously and kept in 
check. One of her prime export customers is Singapore. Her operation would make the Brit pig industry, currently 
involved with an outbreak of foot and mouth disease, look like a bunch of inept amateurs, which you know, on a local 
level, they are not. She would take one look at Avery, readjust her Akubra, ignore him and move on. That interview was 
one of the most amazing things I have ever heard and should be pure inspiration for any aspiring pig farmer seeking 
direction. I have tried to find a link to streaming or downloadable audio or text for it on the BBC website but haven't 
found it yet. If I do I'll post the link here.
-

> These systems moved me to be
> vegetarian for 17 years, but through pc I discovered and learned to
> appreciate the place of animals in ecology and roles in production ecology
> and have now been a selective happy organic omnivore these past 20 years
> with no regrets. 

I think its all about what kind of diet is right for you. A mix of grass fed 
animal protein
and fats minimally cooked plus whole grains, beans, sprouts, nuts, seeds, fruit, vegetables, wild foods, herbs, 
mushrooms, etc etc; juices, salads, smoothies, green tea, honey, sugar cane sticks, sun baked sprouted grain and on and 
on, cooked foods, raw foods, a very careful mix of the two w or w/o animal products, cheese, milk, kefir , yoghurt,
soy everything, powder, tofu, tempeh, miso, tamari, fermented foods, seed cheese, rejuvelac, soy milk and yoghurt, fish, 
eggs, roe. Its all about getting all the vitamins, antioxidants and minerals you need plus a myriad of other nutritional 
substances that come in varying concentrations in a variety of fruits and vegetables and other foods. Dried foods, kim 
chee, kraut, pickled and preserved foods, take your pick for a balanced and nutritious diet that gives you energy and 
keeps you healthy. Not so sure that a particular dietary "style" is the right way to go. You need more diversity in your 
diet and should be able to integrate new foods and new varieties of old foods into your nutritional scheme. Also it may 
be good to completely vary your dietary schedule from day to day or week to week as it might be necessary to fast or 
cleanse periodically. Also to eat what just seems right sometimes without regard for the energy a meal produces; it may 
be necessary to cut back on some foods and switch to something safe and simple so the body can readjust, catch up, 
stabilize one's metabolism, purify your system, etc. On a hot day, just melons at one meal, maybe tropical fruits or 
peaches and tomatoes later in the day. The raw food diet seems the ultimate; the way it is used by an individual 
precludes any diet style issues as you will be forced to adhere to strict combinations and successions of foods 
consumed. Mixing raw with cooked is a difficult issue needing to be handle carefully, and for the long term too.
My take is that oif you're going to mix raw with cooked with animal products then mix nothing with meat, just eat it 
alone; mix no cooked food with meat or faw foods, eat them alone too and let them fully digest before eating another 
meal; plan the meals carefully so you get the benefits of fruits and vegetables when you need them (you can mix nuts
seeds and sprouted grains with raw vegetables) interspersed between meals with meat and meals with cooked foods (rice, 
for eample). That's just my take after studying this subject for 30 years. It applies to me and possibly to others
as well.

> All life is sacred, and from a Gaian perspective a carrot is as sacred as a
> cow--hence I respect all life I take to sustain my own, animal, vegetable,
> mineral...

Thats a great way to look at it. Gaia: Timothy Leary once said something like
"life as we know it is dependent on and sustained by a two foot thick layer of 
green slime covering the Earth".

Robyn:

Remind me who you are and what you do; I think you are a PC teacher and consultant offering workshops and courses 
awarding design certificates but I cannot remember what organization you are associated with or whether you
operate your own consultancy.

Cheers,

LL
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@intrex.net
lfljvfarm@gmail.com
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming & Permaculture 
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PermacultureWiki
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SoilWiki