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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 36

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  • From: Linda Fletcher <ghana_nkwanta@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 36
  • Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT)

Some one published some ideas for books to read on permaculture and I cannot
find the email. Can some one please resend me the email. Thanks, Linda
Fletcher

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
(bwaldrop@cox.net)
2. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
(lbsaltzman@aol.com)
3. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
(oliver smith callis)
4. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
5. [Fwd: [SANET-MG] Re. Colony collapse disorder/Nosema ceranae]
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
6. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts? (kevin s)
7. Community Building (lbsaltzman@aol.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:48:25 -0400
From:
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures
conflicts?
To: permaculture

Cc: toby@patternliteracy.com
Message-ID:
<19780774.1185727705615.JavaMail.root@eastrmwml25.mgt.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I think the "top down" model is inherently a problem for permaculture. I
suspect that the strongest national organizations grow from the bottom up.

I have some small and successful experience in organizing, most recently, the
Oklahoma Food Cooperative. In the beginning, I wrestled with the idea of "who
am I to get this started"? I answered that by saying to myself, "I am the one
who plants seed." The first thing I did was start a listserv discussion
group, and I sent a message to all Oklahoma area groups and listservs that I
thought would be interested.

This began a cyber-discussion, which led to a series of meetings held across
the state. Each meeting elected a representative to an organizing committee.
The organizing committee began to meet every month, and within six months we
had decided on our cooperative form of organization, and began selling shares.

I think that the cooperative model (speaking of the legal structure known as
a cooperative) has a lot of appeal for a national permaculture organization.
The Oklahoma Food Cooperative has been self-financed from the beginning by
the sale of member shares (at $50/each), and through commissions paid by the
producers and customers who use our service. We the Oklahoma Food cooperative
see ourselves as a service to these producers and customers.

The downside is that donations to cooperatives are generally not tax
deductible, but one advantage is the sense of actual ownership and
responsibility that comes with owning "one share of the Oklahoma Food
Cooperative". I have heard that in some states it is possible to organize a
"non-profit cooperative", but I don't know about the tax deductible status of
such groups. One of the other local food cooperatives in another state that
is following our model is organized as a "non-profit cooperative", and I will
check with them to see if they are eligible for 501-c-3 tax deductions.

Another thing we could think about might be a series of workshops to work on
a permaculture design for a national permaculture organization. This would
have the advantage of supporting diverse, grassroots involvement. Through the
design process, many questions about the organization could be developed and
answered, and its structure, purpose, financing and etc could be described. A
dedicated listserv for the purpose could be established to support the
on-going development work. Just as with a regular PDC, people could pay to
attend these workshops, thus providing financial support for the development
process. The design could even be done as a "distance learning" event, such
as the online Barking Frogs permaculture design course I have been involved
with the past two years. This would allow people with travel and time issues
to participate.

I personally think the "lineage" aspect of permaculture is one of its
strengths. I suspect that while holding to core PC principles, each lineage
has its own unique take on the subject matter and its application. A
workable, effective, national permaculture organization would reflect the
great diversity of the permaculture movement. One way to do that would be to
identify the present teaching lineages, and then invite those lineages to
appoint people to work on the permaculture design process for a national
permaculture organization. Indeed, the eventual national board of directors
could be elected by the present teaching lineages..

Finally, it may be that the reason that we don't have a national permaculture
organization at this time is that "the time remains premature". Succession
works in invisible structures, just as it does in meadows, prairies, forests,
and permaculture projects. Jump-starting succession is always problematic, so
that may have something to do with the problems thus far. Perhaps the time is
ripe, though, for movement to a next stage.

Bob Waldrop, tadpole in training


---- toby@patternliteracy.com wrote:
> Kevin et al,
>
> I do think it's time for a national Pc organization in the US, and more
> broadly, an upgrading of what holding a PDC certificate means. Jedd made
> some excellent points, and as he suggests, there have been a number of
> attempts to form national or large regional membership organizations in the
> US. They have all failed. There were a couple of attempts before I was
> doing Pc that others can speak about, there was PINA (Pc Inst of North
> America) in the eighties, there is the dormant Eastern Permaculture
> Teachers Association, and there is the stillborn Western Permaculture
> Teachers Association. Principle difficulties have been burnout, lack of
> funding, lack of support, too little time to take on the enormous task of
> organizing, and difficulty in agreeing (or even determining) what the
> organization's function is. There is also a knee-jerk reaction: "Who are
> those people to create an organization?" which gets to the top-down issue.
> Thing is, those who are organizing would be
delighte
d
> if someone else wanted to do it, but no one does.
>
> Questions need to be answered before the process can begin:
>
> 1. What is the function of the organization? To police teachers and enforce
> how the curriculum is taught, to get accreditation or other clout behind
> the certificate, to offer a clearing house for course resources, to raise
> money for Pc projects, or something else?
>
> 2. How will people find the time and money to begin the organizing process?
> We're all busy, so how do we make time to meet? And setting up a non-profit
> takes lawyers, a website, and other things that cost money. Do the original
> organizers just dig into their pockets and pay, and take time away from
> other projects that may be more promising than one more try at organizing?
> (I shelled out a couple hundred bucks of my own money for WPTA and it's
> simply gone.)
>
> 3. Who gets to organize it? Even the creation of an interim board causes a
> certain amount of resentment among those not on the board. And how do you
> draw committed and talented people to the organizing committee who will
> stick with it? All it took to kill WPTA was for a couple of the organizers
> to get too busy to reply to a couple of critical emails, and the project
> stalled. You need those one or two people who will spearhead and drive
> something to its end no matter what. That really means giving up all your
> other projects. You must find someone willing to make that level of
> commitment.
>
> 4. How are decisions made? As Jedd said, majority rule can mean 49% or more
> may disagree with a decision, and consensus done as a national
> (non-face-to-face) organization would be pretty time consuming.
>
> I can think of lots of other questions. Of course, all of these have been
> answered by the many groups that have formed national organzations, so it
> makes you wonder why permaculturists have been unable or unwilling to do
> so. I think Pc has made a huge amount of progress without one, but I also
> suspect we'd have university-level courses, accreditation, better-funded
> projects, and a better reputation and track record if we did. I agree that
> some of the inertia has come from a lack of trust in organizations, as well
> as a lack of perceived need. Perhaps Pc doesn't attract good organizers,
> although I don't see how that can be the case. Another challenge may be a
> lack of understanding how (and why) to structure a grass-roots, fairly
> anarchic movement into a national organization. But I would support, and
> even aid, an effort to do so.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:02:41 -0400
From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures
conflicts?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <8C9A021CA4D3CEC-86C-B0D4@WEBMAIL-DB13.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This is tricky, while certification and credentials demonstrating skill
levels is important they can also evolve into the permaculture police. Some
people completing a certificate have no business selling there services for
much of anything, others may be as experienced and skilled in their areas of
expertise as the person they took the course from, in which case the course
is simply the conceptual framework around which they can use their existing
skills.?I also believe that there is a danger of the most anal-compulsive
types gathering like bees around honey to develop and rigidly enforce rules.

But there is another purpose a national organization can have and that is to
promote the message of Permaculture and to serve an important educational
P.R. function.


-----Original Message-----
From: toby@patternliteracy.com
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:22 am
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?



Kevin et al,

I do think it's time for a national Pc organization in the US, and more
broadly,
an upgrading of what holding a PDC certificate means. Jedd made some
excellent
points, and as he suggests, there have been a number of attempts to form
national or large regional membership organizations in the US. They have all
failed. There were a couple of attempts before I was doing Pc that others can
speak about, there was PINA (Pc Inst of North America) in the eighties, there
is
the dormant Eastern Permaculture Teachers Association, and there is the
stillborn Western Permaculture Teachers Association. Principle difficulties
have
been burnout, lack of funding, lack of support, too little time to take on
the
enormous task of organizing, and difficulty in agreeing (or even determining)
what the organization's function is. There is also a knee-jerk reaction: "Who
are those people to create an organization?" which gets to the top-down
issue.
Thing is, those who are organizing would be delighted
if someone else wanted to do it, but no one does.

Questions need to be answered before the process can begin:

1. What is the function of the organization? To police teachers and enforce
how
the curriculum is taught, to get accreditation or other clout behind the
certificate, to offer a clearing house for course resources, to raise money
for
Pc projects, or something else?

2. How will people find the time and money to begin the organizing process?
We're all busy, so how do we make time to meet? And setting up a non-profit
takes lawyers, a website, and other things that cost money. Do the original
organizers just dig into their pockets and pay, and take time away from other
projects that may be more promising than one more try at organizing? (I
shelled
out a couple hundred bucks of my own money for WPTA and it's simply gone.)

3. Who gets to organize it? Even the creation of an interim board causes a
certain amount of resentment among those not on the board. And how do you
draw
committed and talented people to the organizing committee who will stick with
it? All it took to kill WPTA was for a couple of the organizers to get too
busy
to reply to a couple of critical emails, and the project stalled. You need
those
one or two people who will spearhead and drive something to its end no matter
what. That really means giving up all your other projects. You must find
someone
willing to make that level of commitment.

4. How are decisions made? As Jedd said, majority rule can mean 49% or more
may
disagree with a decision, and consensus done as a national (non-face-to-face)
organization would be pretty time consuming.

I can think of lots of other questions. Of course, all of these have been
answered by the many groups that have formed national organzations, so it
makes
you wonder why permaculturists have been unable or unwilling to do so. I
think
Pc has made a huge amount of progress without one, but I also suspect we'd
have
university-level courses, accreditation, better-funded projects, and a better
reputation and track record if we did. I agree that some of the inertia has
come
from a lack of trust in organizations, as well as a lack of perceived need.
Perhaps Pc doesn't attract good organizers, although I don't see how that can
be
the case. Another challenge may be a lack of understanding how (and why) to
structure a grass-roots, fairly anarchic movement into a national
organization.
But I would support, and even aid, an effort to do so.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture





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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:13:23 -0600
From: "oliver smith callis"
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures
conflicts?
To: permaculture

Message-ID:
<9e4c50650707291313v3a00d8bcm9d11089b1a37a9bd@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I think that Bob Waldrop brings up some great ideas. Particularly about
collectively designing the nature of a National PC organization/organism,
and the ideas of lineage or "family/clan/tribe relations. Here in Utah
Valley, Ut, we are beginning to design a Permaculture Institute to serve as
a means of building community around Permaculture in our
Bioregion/Watershed. I also have struggled with the question as to "who am I
to presume to set up such an organization in my community", not even having
been certified yet - although I have been studying intensively over the last
3 years. I fall back on the observation that there is a niche that needs to
be filled as far as permaculture design within my community, and I can plant
a seed even as I work towards ceritification/diplomaship. We have determined
that our purpose as a Permaculture institute is to work to provide a "big
picture" for the restoration of our watershed, or to provide top down
thinking for our bottom up, coalition/community building. I assume that our
design will increasingly evolve and change the more a community grows around
and is involved in the discussion. Could this national/regional
organization(ism)'s purpose be to build consensus around a top down thinking
for the grassroots permaculture movement as to how we restore our greater
watershed(s): of North/Central/South America (as we are talking specifically
about this bit of the world). It seems to me that the issue of certification
will take a back seat to and be simply a tool for the accomplishment of our
collective objective (i.e. of regenerating our land base and facilitating
the development of a resilient, decentralized permaculture network).


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:49:44 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures
conflicts?
To: permaculture

Message-ID: <46AD0B78.8050503@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

oliver smith callis wrote:

> It seems to me that the issue of certification
> will take a back seat to and be simply a tool for the accomplishment of our
> collective objective (i.e. of regenerating our land base and facilitating
> the development of a resilient, decentralized permaculture network).

I think it would be a better idea to make certification central to your
community/bioregion design process.
Every time I read Scott Pittman on this list, this idea gets reinforced, his
last post being one of the better examples.
With that you have a set of core values to reflect on and base your design
specs on. You can improve on that later on
but you have to have a common starting point for everyone. Without making
certification
step one you may be putting the cart before the horse. With everyone on the
same page, passing tests and getting their
diploma, they have a common knowledgebase and a commonality of having gone
through the certification process together
something that will have a significant bonding effect. As you design your
community and bioregion you will all be
talking the same language but with an infinitude of variations provided by
each individual's interpretation leading to a
robust synthesis and enhanced group knowledgebase.

I don't know how much work it would be to find the certifier and organize an
ongoing certification program to serve the
entire community but maybe a few could take the training, get certified as
teachers as well as designers then the
group would become a "self" certifying entity; in other words spawn a
generation of PC teacher-certifiers. This might be
a good plan to use on a national or even international scale, at least for
North America.
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@intrex.net
lfljvfarm@gmail.com
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming & Permaculture
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PermacultureWiki
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SoilWiki



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:09:26 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."
Subject: [permaculture] [Fwd: [SANET-MG] Re. Colony collapse
disorder/Nosema ceranae]
To: permaculture

Message-ID: <46AD4856.6000708@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [SANET-MG] Re. Colony collapse disorder/Nosema ceranae
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:08:44 -0700
From: Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)
Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

Misha asked if I was here. Well, I am, lurking quietly in the shadows of
this listserv.

To be honest, I don't follow every turn of the CCD story. I don't
consider myself a honey bee expert, and as an organization, The Xerces
Society doesn't work on honey bee conservation. The focus of our
pollinator conservation efforts has been native pollinators, promoting
protection of them and the creation of habitat for them. Of course,
native bees and honey bees share a lot of territory and habitat
needs, so much of the work we do to encourage habitat

=== message truncated ===


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  • Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 36, Linda Fletcher, 07/31/2007

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