permaculture

["J Kolenovsky" <garden@hal-pc.org>]

Wheaton 3  London 2

-- 
J. Kolenovsky, habitat environmentalist  www.celestialhabitats.com
Energy shortages proves its right. Peak Oil is changing your lifestyle.
www.energybulletin.net www.peak-oil-news.info/  www.theoildrum.com/




Today's Topics:

   1. fruit tree branches under the trees (Paul Wheaton)
   2. sluggo  and slug control (Paul Wheaton)
   3. Re: Keyline terracing (Paul Wheaton)
   4. Re: Keyline terracing (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   5. Re: Keyline terracing (paul wheaton)
   6. Re: Keyline terracing (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   7. Re: Keyline terracing (paul wheaton)
   8. [Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Nosema locustae and honey bees]
      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 09:24:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: [permaculture] fruit tree branches under the trees
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <49931.67392.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I've been meaning to ask this question here for a while, but keep
forgetting ....

When caring for fruit trees, I grant you that you MUST keep all fruit
picked up from
under the tree.  

But what about the branches?  

I know that for some confiers, it is wise to cut at certain times of the
year .... or ...
 perhaps more accurately ....  to NOT cut at certain times of the year,
as the smell of
the freshly cut cambium attracts the insects that love to feed on the
standing trees. 
But I think that might all be specific to just a few species of conifer.

So this winter when pruning, I found that if I took an extra moment to
cut the branches
in to smaller pieces (or to have my son go crazy with the loppers) that
the remaining
pieces would lay rather flat.  This appeared to help the tree combat the
grass that wants
to grow under the tree and compete with the tree.  (I try to then lay
some smothering hay
under the tree and thow down some guild seed with a little soil on top
of the hay)

Since the branches and twigs are laying flat on the ground, they will
decompose fairly
quickly and thus, eventually, feed the tree.  A sort of mini-hugelkultur
if I toss the
hay and soil on top.  

So I can see plenty of up sides of doing this - but I worry about a
possible downside of
attracting insects that think that this tree is yummy.  

Are my concerns foolish?







------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 09:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: [permaculture] sluggo  and slug control
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <54192.31549.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I'm used to having lots of space and growing stuff inland.  And having
chickens.

Now, I live in Seattle trying to save up money to buy land.  And, of
course, have a
garden.  No ducks or chickens.

Earlier this year I planted a bunch of peas.  They came up and then they
disappeared.  I
planted potatoes - I think somebody is eating all the green bits ....

Slugs.  Lots of them.  Big suckers.  Using the Ruth Stout system (lots
of hay) has
downsides in slug ville.  

A housemate bought some "sluggo".  I reasearched it a lot and I'm having
a hard time
coming up with anything that scares me.  But I'm very skeptical.
groworganic.com sells
it.  I like those guys.  But they do sell some stuff I would rather not
use.  

"iron phosphate" is the magic ingredient (1%).  The rest is supposedly
"inert", but I
suspect it is a slug's idea of ben and jerry's ice cream.  Iron
phosphate sounds plenty
safe to me.  A micro nutrient (iron) and the "big P" from the famous
group "NPK".

I wonder what earthworms think of it?

Microbials?  

Anybody know of any big sirends of doom in using this stuff?






------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 10:08:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keyline terracing
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <814998.15667.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

> Keyline terracing
> 32508726.riceterracescopy.jpg
> http://www.pbase.com/mreichel/image/32508726

Very cool pics!

More!  More!

I would like to know what the soils are like there. Sandy?  Lots of
clay?

Where does the water come from?

What do they do each year to maintain those?

Does the soil get richer or poorer?

As permaculture folks, I suspect that we would want to say "not enough
trees", but ....
where might one plant trees so that the tree roots don't compromise a
berm and let all
the water out?




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:04:28 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keyline terracing
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46421B3C.6020904@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Paul Wheaton wrote:

>>Keyline terracing
>>32508726.riceterracescopy.jpg
>>http://www.pbase.com/mreichel/image/32508726
> 
> 
> Very cool pics!
> 
> More!  More!

I'll post links to several more galleries of those pix.

> I would like to know what the soils are like there. Sandy?  Lots of
clay?

Probably clay.

> Where does the water come from?

Out of the sky.

> What do they do each year to maintain those?

Rice growing is a religious affair for Vietnamese. The people in farming
communities, villages and outlying regions
do all the work partly by hand, draft animals and motor-driven tillage
machines. Sometimes harvest is done, on
large flat areas, with small ride-on rice harvesters.

> Does the soil get richer or poorer?

They add livestock manure to them possibly each year. The farm animals
are fed all sorts of green plant material
harvested from around their farms and forested areas. They may leave the
stalks of harvested grain crops to rot in the 
field, if they aren't used for cooking fuel or livestock feed.

> As permaculture folks, I suspect that we would want to say "not enough
trees", but ....
> where might one plant trees so that the tree roots don't compromise a
berm and let all
> the water out?

Forest gardens.

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:39:46 -0700
From: "paul wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keyline terracing
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
        <22d4eb790705091239k1e7803e8v4e743fb911991836@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> > Where does the water come from?
>
> Out of the sky.

(might .... fight .... urge .... to .... kick ... man .... in .... the
nuts ... )

So there are no trickles of water anywhere the get routed from terrace
to terrace?

It seems like a warm day would evaporate nearly all of that water.

Plus, when there is too much water (hard rain) ....  it seems like
there could be problems with blowouts - especially the lower terraces.

> > What do they do each year to maintain those?
>
> Rice growing is a religious affair for Vietnamese. The people in
farming communities, villages and outlying regions
> do all the work partly by hand, draft animals and motor-driven tillage
machines. Sometimes harvest is done, on
> large flat areas, with small ride-on rice harvesters.

I'm imagining that they must walk on the edges of the terraces and
check for leaks regularly.  Then plug the leaks with ....  clay they
pack in?  If they tried to plug leaks with muck from inside the
terrace, the muck wouldn't last long.

I'm curious how much maintenance is required to keep those terraces in
shape.

> > As permaculture folks, I suspect that we would want to say "not
enough trees", but ....
> > where might one plant trees so that the tree roots don't compromise
a berm and let all
> > the water out?
>
> Forest gardens.

I don't see that sort of thing in the pics.  ???

The lip on the terrace seems to be pretty thin.  So it wouldn't take
much to compromise it.  A small push slightly downhill of the terrace
could send a root up to the water of the terrace and then the water
could start to follow the root.  As the water starts to travel along
the root, it erodes a pathway, causing a drain hole in the terrace.

And if you don't have some kind of growies on that lip, rain water
might erode it ....


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:03:54 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keyline terracing
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4642292A.2020006@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

paul wheaton wrote:


> So there are no trickles of water anywhere the get routed from terrace
> to terrace?

I have not seen any documentation as to how they regulate overflow from
all the terraces
but it either flows over the edges or through gates at the ends, plies
of dirt removed
to release water downhill.

> It seems like a warm day would evaporate nearly all of that water.

Its a humid climate and there is a lot of water in containment plus
regular rainfall
of varying intensity will replenish that which evaporated.

> Plus, when there is too much water (hard rain) ....  it seems like
> there could be problems with blowouts - especially the lower terraces.

They have been there for thousands of years. I expect they may be made
of dense clay.

>>>What do they do each year to maintain those?
>>
>>Rice growing is a religious affair for Vietnamese. The people in
farming communities, villages and outlying regions
>>do all the work partly by hand, draft animals and motor-driven tillage
machines. Sometimes harvest is done, on
>>large flat areas, with small ride-on rice harvesters.
> 
> 
> I'm imagining that they must walk on the edges of the terraces and
> check for leaks regularly.  Then plug the leaks with ....  clay they
> pack in?  If they tried to plug leaks with muck from inside the
> terrace, the muck wouldn't last long.
> 
> I'm curious how much maintenance is required to keep those terraces in
shape.

I think I will Google that. Probably low maintenance due to their age
and refinement of their farming system.

>>>As permaculture folks, I suspect that we would want to say "not
enough trees", but ....
>>>where might one plant trees so that the tree roots don't compromise a
berm and let all
>>>the water out?
>>
>>Forest gardens.

> I don't see that sort of thing in the pics.  ???

I have pix of that and will post links, not forest gardens but
harvesting the lush undergrowth for livestock feed; no 
need to plant forage crops in the forests.

> The lip on the terrace seems to be pretty thin.  So it wouldn't take

It is probably tapered from narrow at the top to wide at the base, just
like a reservoir dam.

> much to compromise it.  A small push slightly downhill of the terrace
> could send a root up to the water of the terrace and then the water
> could start to follow the root.  As the water starts to travel along
> the root, it erodes a pathway, causing a drain hole in the terrace.
> 
> And if you don't have some kind of growies on that lip, rain water
> might erode it ....

Paths are located on much of the terrace rims. Overflow is probably
regulated by some mechanism at the ends of the 
terraces. This will be an interesting research project.

LL
-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 13:13:46 -0700
From: "paul wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keyline terracing
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
        <22d4eb790705091313m26a4dc2l6f4efee0b5e67dcf@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> > It seems like a warm day would evaporate nearly all of that water.
>
> Its a humid climate and there is a lot of water in containment plus
regular rainfall
> of varying intensity will replenish that which evaporated.

Oh!  Okay.  I was thinking about how this could be a spiffy idea in
lots of places.

> > Plus, when there is too much water (hard rain) ....  it seems like
> > there could be problems with blowouts - especially the lower
terraces.
>
> They have been there for thousands of years. I expect they may be made
of dense clay.

Well, I kinda like the idea with permaculture being that you can
pretty much walk away from a system and it just gets better and
better.  This one looks like a lot of work ... and ... if one were to
try and use it, it would be good to know how, over thousands of years,
they have mitigated some of the engineering challenges.  If I wanna do
that too, how much work am I adopting?

> This will be an interesting research project.

And how!


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:33:44 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: [permaculture] [Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Nosema locustae and honey
        bees]
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46423E38.5030307@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Nosema locustae and honey bees
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:06:52 -0400
From: jcummins <jcummins@UWO.CA>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

Hi Edna,
Nosema was demoted from being a protozoan into being a fungus in 2006.
Nosema locustae has been approved by EPA and used to control
grasshoppers and locusts for several years. Other Nosema are used to
control other pests. The fungi tend to be specific to particular insect
pests. The Nosema identified in CCD effected hives is Nosema ceranea
which originated with oriental bees and recently jumped to honey
bees.Nosema infection of honey bee mimics CCD in that workers leave the
hive and then are disoriented or too weak to get home again.
The point I made earlier in the report I circulated (see below) is that
the main seed treatment insecticides and some foliage insecticides at
levels well below the lethal dose greatly enhance the effects of the
insect killing fungus and there are many papers advising that the bio
control fungus be enhanced with traces of insecticide. The low level
insecticide wipes out the insects immune system allowing the fungus to
kill the insects. The seed treatment insecticides and even foliar sprays
are allowed on GM refuges and crops along with non-GM crops. The
widespread use of seed treatment insecticides may weaken honey bee's
immune system (which is know to be meager even without the traces
chemical poison) allowing bee Nosema to eradicate the honey bee as if it
were a pest not a friend (friendly fire). Hope this helps. sincerely,
joe cummins
1 May 2007
Prof. Joe Cummins
Parasitic fungi and pesticides interact synergistically to kill insect
pests: Honey bees may succumb to friendly fire?
Honey bees are facing an unparalleled threat from something in the
environment which is causing them to leave their hives but never return.
The condition is called Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). A number of
ideas have been put forward to explain the catastrophe (1). The leading
areas of concern are systemic insecticides ( the neonicotinoid systemic
pesticides used worldwide to treat seeds and crops) including the
genetically modified (GM) crops (1,2), parasitic fungi (3) and radiation
associated with mobile phones (4). These environmental threats all are
believed to have similar effects on the honey bees.
Parasitic fungi are used extensively as entomopathogenic biocontrol
organisms. Fungal spores are used to deliver the parasites in sprays or
baits. It has been observed that the parasites frequently interact
synergistically with neonicotinoid pesticides, particularly the
insecticide imidacloprid which delivered at a sublethal level t in a
liquid suspension of parasite spores. Significant enhancement to the
insecticidal activity of the fungal spores are often observed. The
spores of the insect killing fungus Beauveria bassinia was used to treat
the brown leafhopper pest of rice , when accompanied by a sublethal dose
of imidacloprid the formulations acted earlier and greater activity than
the spores of the fungus alone (5). The sweet potato whitefly was
controlled using the fungus Lecanicillium muscarium combined with
sublethal levels of imidacloprid gave satisfactory control of the fly
and merited inclusion in integrated control programs (6). Beauveria
bassinia spores combined with imidacloprid at a level one tenth the
lethal dose was found to significantly enhance control of the leaf
cutting ant(7) Termites were controlled by imidacloprid at sublethal
levels enhancing the fungal parasite Metarhizium anisopliae (8). The
point of this discussion is to show that the presence of neonicotinoid
insecticides in at sublethal levels causes enhanced insect killing by
the fungal parasites. The neonicotinoid insecticides used to treat seeds
are systematic and accumulate in plant parts including flowers .The
presence of the insecticides at sub lethal level seems to interfere with
the insect?s immune system leading to susceptibility to fungal
pathogens.
The parasitic fungus, Nosema ceranea, a single celled parasite was found
in CCD affected bee hives from around the USA (3). Nosema locustae has
been a commercial biocontrol fungus to control locusts and grasshoppers.
An integrated pest management strategy, with an emphasis on the use of
Metarhizium an ascosporic fungus , that incorporates rational use of
chemical pesticides with biological options such as the microsporidian
Nosema locustae and the hymenopteran egg parasitoids Scelio spp., has
become a realistic option. (9). Nosema bombycis has been a major pest of
the silkworm but it has been used as a to control Diamondback moth.
Another microporidian , Vairimorpha sp.,isolated from the Diamondback
moth in Malaysia caused 100% mortality when applied to moth larvae at
1500 spores per larva (10).
Nosema pyrausta infects the European corn borer and can be used in
biocontrol of the pest. Purified Bacillus thuringiensis Cry1Ab toxin was
fed to Nosema infected and uninfected borer larvae. Nosema infection
reduced the lethal dose of Cry!Ab toxin to one third the lethal dose of
the uninfected larvae (11). The Bacillus thuringiensis kurstaki (Dipel)
formulations were used to treat Nosema pyrausta infected and uninfected
corn borer larvae. The infected larvae had a lethal dose 45 times lower
than the uninfected larvae (12).
I am not suggesting that biocontrol agents pose a threat to the honey
bee, rather, I am pointing out that there is a good indication that
exposure to sublethal levels of systemic insecticides used in seed
treatment of both conventional and GM crops and in widespread soil and
foliar applications can effect beneficial insects by reducing their
immunity to parasitic fungi. Regulators have allowed extensive
deployment of systemic insecticides for seed treatment and they have
allowed extensive use of foliar sprays of the systemic insecticides on a
wide array of food and feed crops. The impact of such pesticides on
honey bees has been evaluated using measurements of lethal dose alone ,
ignoring the clear evidence that sublethal doses of the insecticides act
synergistically with fungal parasites of the insects that are beneficial
along with the insect pests. The honey bees may b e falling victim to
?friendly fire? directed to exterminating insect pests. Unfortunately,
regulators around the world have dealt with decline of honey bees
through tunnel vision, ignoring well established pesticide-fungal
parasite interactions. Such regulators must be awakened from their nap.
References
1.Ho,M-W and Cummins,J. Mystery of disappearing bees Science in Society
2007 34 in press
2.Cummins,J. Requiem forthe honey bee Science in Society 2007 in press
3.Cummins,J. A parasitic fungus Nosema ceranea and honey bee decline in
press
4. Ho,M-W Mobile phones and vanishing bees Science in Society 2007 , 34
in press
5. Feng MG and Pu XY. Time-concentration-mortality modeling of the
synergistic interaction of Beauveria bassiana and imidacloprid against
Nilaparvata lugens. Pest Manag Sci. 2005 Apr;61(4):363-70.
6. Cuthbertson AG, Walters KF and Deppe C. Compatibility of the
entomopathogenic fungus Lecanicillium muscarium and insecticides for
eradication of sweetpotato whitefly, Bemisia tabaci. Mycopathologia.
2005 Aug;160(1):35-41.
7. Santos AV, de Oliveira BL and Samuels RI. Selection of
entomopathogenic fungi for use in combination with sub-lethal doses of
imidacloprid: perspectives for the control of the leaf-cutting ant Atta
sexdens rubropilosa Forel (Hymenoptera: Formicidae). Mycopathologia.
2007 Apr;163(4):233-40.
8. R Ramakrishnan, DR Suiter, CH Nakatsu, RA Humber and Bennett,G.
Imidacloprid-Enhanced Reticulitermes flavipes (Isoptera:
Rhinotermitidae) Susceptibility to the Entomopathogen Metarhizium
anisopliae J. Econ. Entomol, 1999,92(5): 1125-32
9. Lomer CJ, Bateman RP, Johnson DL, Langewald J and Thomas M.
Biological control of locusts and grasshoppers. Annu Rev Entomol.
2001;46:667-702.
10. Sarfraz, M. Keddie, A and Dosdall, L. Biological control of the
diamondback moth, Plutella xylostella : A review Biocontrol Science and
Technology 2005, 15,763-89
11. Reardon BJ, Hellmich RL, Sumerford DV and Lewis LC. Growth,
development, and survival of Nosema pyrausta-infected European corn
borers (Lepidoptera: Crambidae) reared on meridic diet and Cry1Ab. J
Econ Entomol. 2004 Aug;97(4):1198-201.
12. Pierce CM, Solter LF and Weinzierl RA. Interactions between Nosema
pyrausta (Microsporidia: Nosematidae) and Bacillus thuringiensis subsp.
kurstaki in the European corn borer (Lepidoptera: Pyralidae). J Econ
Entomol. 2001 Dec;94(6):1361-8.

Edna Weigel wrote:
> A recent posting about honey bees mentioned, among other things, 
> Nosema locustae. When I forwarded the posting to a bee keeper friend, 
> his reply included the following statement: "Nosema(s) are common 
> infections of the insects digestion tract, and ... I see that the 
> agribusiness world are using them now as biological controls on 
> certain insect pests like moths and grasshoppers."
> It's not just agribusiness; I've used it in the past and am 
> considering using it again this year for grasshoppers. Are there 
> multiple kinds of Nosema protozoan? Are honey bees affected (even sub 
> lethally) by Nosema locustae? I always thought Nosema locustae (which 
> is advertised to affect only grasshoppers, mole crickets, Mormon 
> crickets, and black field crickets and which is sold as Semaspore Bait

> or Nolo Bait) was a wise ecological approach to controlling 
> grasshoppers. Now I wonder if the advertising isn't telling the whole 
> story (unfortunately advertising very often doesn't!) or if distinctly

> different Nosema(s) are responsible for bee infections. Can someone 
> out there who understands the infections of insect guts better than I 
> do please comment?
> Warm regards,
> Edna



------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 52, Issue 18
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