permaculture

[Sean Maley <semaley@yahoo.com>]

This discussion might want to move over to a techie area, 
as this can't be pleasant for the non-techie subscribers.  However, I do want 
the community to understand costs involved to maintain a presence on the 
internet.  Many of us are paying out of pocket, or must be creative regarding 
TOS (terms of service).  Together, we can reduce these burdens by supporting 
any 
number of permaculture charities, who could then sponsor such endeavors.

Bouncing apache, [whatever] db, perl CPAN reconfigs, etc are 
all good reasons to have root/sudu.  This keeps me from quoting anything 
other 
than co-lo services when discussing the coop.  You can get a free host, if 
you 
don't mind a few advertisements of your unchoice.  It would be nice and cheap 
to 
go for the shared servers, which usually include root access on a virtual 
server 
($20/mo to $60/mo).  Preferably, we co-locate a system of our supply 
($45/mo), 
or lease a co-located system ($55/mo to $300+/mo).  Since storing free PCs is 
more of a problem than finding them on NYC streets, I really would like to 
see 
several ecovillages with favorable bandwidth and TOS using solar/wind power; 
I'd 
be happy to network along computer equipment to you.  I could easily set up 
round robin scripts to create "high availability" across multiple global 
locations.  A comprehensive data-center at an ecovillage would cost thousands 
per month, just for bandwidth.

DB development for a simple wiki, blog, or 
PFAF wouldn't chew up much IO or CPU, so isn't much of a threat.  The problem 
comes when we wish to move beyond storing data and recalling easily defined 
records (OLTP - OnLine Transaction Processing).  Analytical DB development 
(OLAP 
- OnLine Analytical Processing) should be isolated, even for QA iterations.  
Although mixing OLTP and OLAP designs seems common, it can be an exercise in 
frustration (picture frozen programs when the OLAP analysis happens, which 
can 
happen at any moment, per the definition of "OnLine").  If you want new 
information from analysis, not the data you already know, the requirements 
change considerably.

An alternative would be to simply enter guilds like 
you enter a recipe.  Users would then look through articles via a Google like 
search tool.  Perhaps 
latitude/longitude parameters could hone the guild examples, but there would 
be 
no analysis like searching through crop yields to find the best guild using 
the 
same search parameters.  In OLAP terms, the storage keys (species, guild, 
time, 
location, etc) would be called dimensions.  The values stored across these 
dimensions are called measures.  We have yet to define measures and 
dimensions 
to do analysis.  "Guilds including a species" searching means OLTP.  "Guilds 
exceeding a given average yield in tons per hectare" would be OLAP.

An 
OLAP tool would be very useful after a number of years of data collection.  
For 
the OLTP solution, stick to PFAF and Google.  For the USA, the PLANTS 
database 
also provides great information (advanced search useful to identify say 
native 
N-fixers found in your zipcode).  Sorry Rich, but even the 'eden' database is 
poorly structured (further normalization would be tedious, inconsistencies 
make 
potential SQL results unpredictable; the uses given per species are an 
example of inconsistency, species also hard to line up to USDA and ITIS data; 
not to mention endless cultivars yet to be included with variations from the 
information given in eden).


-Sean.

----- Original Message ----
From: neshura <neshura@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:35:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Permaculture International] [permaculture] database, wiki, 
blogs, forums, etc

Like Rich said, places like textdrive.com and other tech-savvy hosting
companies give you everything you need to run a full db-driven
application, an apache instance (or many), etc etc without the
necessity of sudo. Sudo is in fact not necessary to run any of these
things -- a certain amount of administrator privileges can be
conferred securely without having to give someone root. Shared server
space is much much cheaper than dedicated server space and often more
secure as well, since staff admins are breathing down the necks of the
share-ees.

As an additional comment though, there are not a lot of companies that
will give you shared server space to *develop* a db-driven
application. Since you won't be able to tell a hosting company that
your app is production-ready, chances are high that you will need to
run your own server in a colo, and that is substantially more
expensive. Definitely try to find someone who will donate space that
doesn't violate the TOS if you are messing around restarting apache or
postgres or upgrading from CPAN or whatever.



On 12/18/06, webmaster@pfaf.org <webmaster@pfaf.org> wrote:
> > From: Paul Cereghino <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
> >
> > I think the colaborative writing opportunities in a wiki are very
> > powerful.  What I mistrust is that the overall structure of the wiki
> > lacks form.  In other words... the whole is less than the sum of its
> > parts.  However, I am not convinced that a step up in complexity is
> > necessary, but rather a better organization of the wiki concept may
> > serve the purpose.
>
> This is where the social structure fits in. Above the level of the
> technical is the social structure, how the different editors work
> together and the overall direction of the project. A large part of
> wikipedia is devoted to the social structure. The following elements
> seem to important:
>         A clear goal: what is this project for
>         A structure for the community:
>         An established decision making process: how do the users decide 
> things
>         An evolving set of guidelines: as the project progresses the 
> details of
> how the information is to be presented
>
> On wikipedia they have three policies:
>
> 1. as an encyclopedia: Neutral point of view (NPOV) - our basic
> editorial policy
> 2. as a community: Don't be a dick - our basic social principle
> 3. as a wiki: Ignore all rules - the suggested personal policy
>
> The first determines the shape of the project. In our case NPOV is not
> what we want.
>
> It could be possible to establish a more or less structured system, both
> in the look of the pages and in the descision making process. In
> wikipedia each article has a talk page, where the editors can discuss
> the content of that article, they also have various community pages
> where wider-scale discussions can be held. There is a big advantage to
> keep these in the same system as the actual content, the closeness of
> the talk pages enables discussion.
>
> > I'd propose that this is due to to flaws: the 'pages' of a wiki are not
> > classifiable, nor are the ways that wikis connect with each other
> > clearly classified.
>
> > Christopher Alexander's Pattern Language stands out as a stellar example
> > of a dynamic user-engaging presentation of complex design theory.  If
> > something of that power could be constructed for a permaculture we would
> > be on to something.  Why does it work so well?
> >
> > The structure of each "Alexander Pattern" is fairly constant.  The
> > pattern is connected to larger scale patterns, an argument for the
> > importance of the pattern is made, the argument is discussed, the
> > critical characteristics of the proposed pattern are summarized, and the
> > pattern is linked to the most relevant smaller scale patterns.  Rich's
> > reference to a documentation convention may be a solution.
> >
> > Each Alexander pattern is roughly located on a 'scale' axis -- from
> > large scale patterns to small scale patterns.  Wikis are not organized
> > along some critical axis in this way.  Can a category be assigned to a
> > wiki page along a scale continuum (landscape > Site > guild), and this
> > axis be used to organize total content?
> >
> > Each Alexander Pattern is the same kind of animal... it is a pattern
> > describing a spatial arrangement of an element or elements.  Permawiki
> > contains a whole zoo full of animals -- some oink and some fly.  Some of
> > them could qualify as 'design elements' (CHICKEN or FRUIT TREE) while
> > others are concepts (ZONES or KEYLINE) while others are actual design
> > patterns (HERB SPIRAL or APPLE GUILD).
>
> Yes, design patterns is a good example, in both Alexander and the
> GOF-programming language patterns, there is a clear structure to each
> pattern: intentions, consequences, ... Evolving a good pattern for
> permaculture information is a good goal.
>
> > Can a wiki either be narrowed to one type of page, or have pages
> labeled so that they can be observed in groups of similar pages.. A
> network of concepts, a network of design patterns...
>
> > The linkages between these each 'wiki' are only defined by the text
> > surrounding the hyperlinked word.  There is no convention for how
> > concept/elements link to eachother.  Structuring the discussion of how
> > on pattern relates to another may be the critical link.
> >
> > Here'd be my list of goals for a permaculture wiki:
> >
> > # The wiki helps a person identify interactions between elements to
> > develop new and unique patterns.  This can happen at various scales...
> > linking systems accross a landscape, or elements within a site, or
> > guilds within a vegetation mosaic.
> >
> > # The wiki allows a person to change scale or stay within the same scale
> > consciously, and stay on topic.  If the reader is interested in
> > reflecting on concepts, they can follow that path.. if they are deadset
> > on thinking about constructing guilds they can wander at that level.
> >
> > # the wiki references high-quality sources of information, but does not
> > attempt to contain all information within itself - the function of the
> > wiki is to describe linkages between elements, and design solutions that
> > integrate multiple linkages.  Public domain PDF's could be linked within
> > the server.
> >
> > # wiki pages would be peer reviewed, and elevated as 'high quality
> > drafts -- the whole wiki could be publishable as a PDF edition by using
> > consistent formating and large scale information structures.
> >
> > ## In terms of A wiki page should be as short as possible while serving
> > the function on fitting the concept, pattern or element into the whole.
> > I once had a professor who always gave us profound essay questions and
> > then limited the response to two pages double spaced 12 point font.  It
> > was brutal, and took twice as long as spewing out 10 pages of text.  To
> > achieve this the function of an information unit (a wiki page) has to be
> > clear as possible.
>
> From: Sean Maley <semaley@yahoo.com>
> > I never had more than a handful of response to my
> > Permaculture web hosting cooperative.  Would ibiblio
> > sponsor such a coop to get it off the ground?  Would
> > ibiblio allow root access for us to install/configure
> > software?  I'd love to see this develop into a "highly
> > available" global topology of web hosts (talk about
> > reliability and permanence).
>
> You know I'm comeing round to the idea a bit more, a host where you
> could freely install software, as needed, and also get a bit of income
> through hosting some individual permaculture pages. It does need
> consideration of the buissness plan. An alternative is to hook up with
> http://www.openserving.org/ which has just been set up by Jimbo
> (wikipedia) Wales, this look like it will have a a wide range of
> software installed.
>
> Lawrence wrote:
>
> > The problem with that wiki is that the install of the wiki software was 
> > done by Wikia,
> > not us, and there's no way to change the functionality of it. 
> > Furthermore, they own the site
> > and our data and can it keep online or not as they choose. There's no 
> > security there for the long haul.
>
> I tend to agree here, there is a modicum of outside control on wikia.
> What seems to be very importnat to be is 'ownership' of the project. If
> the project comes from the members of this mailing list it, then I think
> it has a better chance to establish that vital critical mass. It is also
> vital that its clear it belongs to all of us. This I feel is why some of
> the wiki's set up on personal website haven't taken off. Its very
> different contributing to what is one persons wiki. Its important that
> we enter into this as a group, with consensus from the very start.
>
> A minor point, perma-wiki data is under a free documentation licence, so
> we are free to use that data as long as we adhere to the licence. This
> is also a vital principal as it allows forking which prevents the
> content ever bing locked down.
>
> > Do they allow sever admin level access to the host?
> > Would we create our own logins, or do we depend on
> > them for that?  Do we get the "root" password or even
> > sudo?
>
> No external hosting service is going to allow root access, just too
> dangerous. However this does not really matter too much, for mysql
> databases the root user has the power to create databases, anything
> within that database can be changed by a regular ibiblio user with
> appropriate permissions. Likewise with MediaWiki hosted in an
> individuals user account allows complete control of the software
> functionality and an ibiblio-user can add extensions etc. Within
> MediaWiki there can be various levels of user responsability (and
> power): WikiSysops, admins and regular users.
>
> Rich
>
>
>
> --
> Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
> Web:   http://www.pfaf.org/
> Post:  1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
> Tel:     01208 872 963
> Email: webweaver@pfaf.org
> PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf
>
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