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  • From: "Don" <ujgs2@4dirs.com>
  • To: <rkelly@bigfoot.com>, "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Bacterial Wilt
  • Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:20:15 -0700

Prevention is always best - use vanilla extract dilution and spray to confuse to scent of the squash from the prey. And plant the seeds in a mound so it does not stay wet.

If you start to see wilt happen try making/using colloidal silver or hydrogen peroxide

Then dont plant squash in the same place year after year, rotate.
Wilt happens because of root injury, if all the plant wilts remove and trash it...then treat the soil with above.

hope that helps...
Don Titmus
Four Directions PermaCulture

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Kelly" <marshall_mush@yahoo.com>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: [permaculture] Bacterial Wilt


Hello friends,

I wonder if anyone might have some insight into
cures for bacterial wilt on cucumbers, squash,
etc. I know that the cucumber beetle is a vector
of this disease and that controlling the beetle
helps control the wilt. I wonder, though, are
there approaches that directly target the
bacteria? Also, will the removal of
wilted/affected leaves help or hurt the plant's
chances of survival.

Thank you so much for sharing any insight

Rob

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Today's Topics:

1. Germination Rates in Mulch (Niels
Corfield)
2. Re: Germination Rates in Mulch (neshura)
3. Re: Germination Rates in Mulch ( roxann )
4. Re: Germination Rates in Mulch (Niels
Corfield)
5. heritage peach tree preservation (oliver
smith callis)
6. Re: permaculture - Biofuel Illusion (Paul
A Cross)
7. Re: permaculture - Biofuel Illusion (Sean
Maley)
8. Re: biofuel (D.A. Riley)
9. BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Heritage body
'no' to carbon cuts
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
10. Re: the biofuel illusion (maria morehead)



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 18:01:18 +0100
From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@gmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Germination Rates in
Mulch
To: permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <44B287DE.7030505@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed

Hi,

Anyone got any experience of successfully
germinating seeds in a mulch?
If so what are your kind of maximum mulch
thicknesses?
Or is people's experience that there is no
germination worth talking about?

ATB,
Niels




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:06:51 -0400
From: neshura <neshura@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Germination Rates
in Mulch
To: permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:


<5a1097890607101006g449e76dbubb56672fed6918ae@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed

Silver maple germination is practically 100% in
my mulch, but not much
use to me. As for smaller herbaceous seeds, I'd
be interested to know
as well if anyone has an answer to Niel's
questions. I'm planning to
do a thick sowing of mustard over some new
mulch that keeps washing
out during the wild rainstorms, but it would be
good to know if it is
a waste of time or not.

Thanks,
-Amanda

On 7/10/06, Niels Corfield <mudguard@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Anyone got any experience of successfully
germinating seeds in a mulch?
> If so what are your kind of maximum mulch
thicknesses?
> Or is people's experience that there is no
germination worth talking about?
>
> ATB,
> Niels
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>

http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:38:55 +0000
From: " roxann "
<roxann@ancientearthwisdom.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Germination Rates
in Mulch
To: "permaculture"
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<20060710173855.19979.qmail@host205.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

i use a hay mulch and i've never tried just
putting the seeds down on or in the mulch.
usually, i will put a bucketfull of soil where
i want to plant (on top of the mulch) and then
mulch that after the seeds are up well enough.
i was thinking the seeds needed good contact
with the soil and moisture to germinate.

roxann



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 19:18:34 +0100
From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Germination Rates
in Mulch
To: roxann <roxann@ancientearthwisdom.com>,
permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <44B299FA.9070504@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed

Roxann, Neshura,

I think there are a number of conditions seeds
will germinate.
Seeds are adapted for germination in a
leaf-litter, rather than soil. I
think mainly.
Green manure seeds can germinate and root in
brassica hearts.
"I have tried ugm (undersown green manures)
with various clover and
cereal types but have run into problems of
establishment and seed
falling into the heart of brassacaes and taking
root there!"
Ian Tollhurst

http://www.veganorganic.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=65

So there is possibility of top-side, or partial
imersion-mulch germination.

Niels

roxann wrote:

>i use a hay mulch and i've never tried just
putting the seeds down on or in the mulch.
usually, i will put a bucketfull of soil where
i want to plant (on top of the mulch) and then
mulch that after the seeds are up well enough.
i was thinking the seeds needed good contact
with the soil and moisture to germinate.
>
>roxann
>

_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:53:29 -0600
From: "oliver smith callis"
<oliversmithcallis@gmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] heritage peach tree
preservation
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org,
bdnow@envirolink.org,
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, "International
Permaculture List"
<permaculture@openpermaculture.org>
Message-ID:


<9e4c50650607101153g3202b103w3da33b943fec5332@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252;
format=flowed

Hello All,
I am conducting a heritage fruit tree
preservation project in my area, Utah
Valley, Utah. I have just come across a stand
of peach trees which are
around 100 to 120 years old. The grandson of
the man who planted the trees
said that his great grandmother brought a peach
tree here from France which
was used as the rootstock. The trees are in bad
shape as horses have been
kept in the orchard they are in, and may not
last long. It seems to me that
this would be a good rootstock to preseve as
most commercial orchardists in
my area say that peach trees don't typically
last longer than 25 years. Does
anybody have any info on stimulating a root
into producing a tree or any
other means of propogating the rootstock? An
orchardist here suggested
"hitting them with nitrates in the spring" to
get something off of the
roots. I would prefer to use a
biodynamic/organic method of propogation, any
input would be great.
Much appreciated,

--
Oliver Smith Callis


"I believe we can accomplish great and
profitable things within a new
conceptual framework?one that values our
legacy, honors diversity, and feeds
ecosystems and societies . . . It is time for
designs that are creative,
abundant, prosperous, and intelligent from the
start."
William McDonough

"The only limit on the number of uses of a
resource possible within a system
is in the limit of the information and the
imagination of the designer...The
yield of a system is theoretically unlimited."
Bill Mollison



http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/004559.html

(see the "Greening the Desert" flash video
below)
http://www.permaculture.org.au/


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:04:12 -0600
From: "Paul A Cross" <charybda@newmex.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture -
Biofuel Illusion
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<005601c6a454$5606eb60$cba0513f@demeter>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Ben wrote:
If we're going to idealize a historical
subsistence pattern, than let it
be that of all the hunter-gather and
horticultural groups that comprised
the totality of humanity until roughly 10,000
years ago, and continue to
exist in a few places at present. Their effects
on overall biomass and
biodiversity were/are almost always nil to
positive; their people
consistently happier than any other type of
society, and with the
possible exception of modern industrial
society, always healthier than
any other; their lives ones of more leisure
than any agricultural or
industrial society.

I question whether the hunter-gatherer culture
really ever existed. I'm no
anthropologist, but I figure that when we were
able to make tools to hunt and
gather then we were probably already engaged in
creating a polycultural
environment that appears to us today as
"nature" but in fact has been very
carefully influenced by conscious human action
for their benefit. And on my
more cynical days, I figure that the early
cultures just lacked enough people
and technology to degrade the ecosystems.

The concepts we are developing now of food
forests and permaculture
farms/gardens, we often think of this as
modeling natural systems, yet maybe
this is more going back to earlier design
strategies that we forgot or
abandoned when we moved to systems that we
recognize today as agriculture.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:49:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sean Maley <semaley@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture -
Biofuel Illusion
To: permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:

<20060710194929.38415.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

--- Paul A Cross <charybda@newmex.com> wrote:
> I question whether the hunter-gatherer
culture really ever existed. I'm no
> anthropologist, but I figure that when we
were able to make tools to hunt and
> gather then we were probably already engaged
in creating a polycultural
> environment that appears to us today as
"nature" but in fact has been very
> carefully influenced by conscious human
action for their benefit. And on my
> more cynical days, I figure that the early
cultures just lacked enough people
> and technology to degrade the ecosystems.

This is a very good point. Some of the recent
writing, that this discussion emanates, states
that
"civilization" is what is specific, not
"hunter-gatherer". In the infamous words of
Duh!, "Either
you are with us, or you are against us", we
find that our culture isn't very tolerant of
competing
thought. The concept of a "hunter-gatherer"
becomes hijacked by our lack of adequate words
to
describe it. To me, Permaculture serves as the
spectrum between a monoculture perception of
"hunter-gatherer" and "agriculture" where soil
isn't being depleted. Therefore, this new word
-
describing a non soil depleting horticultural
practice - can be used to better understand
indigenous cultures and realize that "hunter
gatherers" are more than just animals taking
from
what nature provides without attempting to
alter their natural surroundings.

> The concepts we are developing now of food
forests and permaculture
> farms/gardens, we often think of this as
modeling natural systems, yet maybe
> this is more going back to earlier design
strategies that we forgot or
> abandoned when we moved to systems that we
recognize today as agriculture.

Many humans aren't the only species attempting
to reconfigure their surroundings to suit
themselves. Could birds be intending to put
seeds in certain locations to their advantage
(sanitariums exist for birds, as well as
humans)? We see examples of tool use in
Chimpanzees and
Gorillas, what other skills do they apply that
we formerly associated with our own
"intelligence"?
Why do we assume humanity was mindless before
civilization, despite being physiologically
identical before hand, albeit without the tooth
decay and diseases of civilization? With
Chimpanzee being 97% the same genetically as
humans, why do we assume we are not ourselves a
form
of chimpanzee, Pan Sapiens? If the world
wasn't created 10,000 years ago, as suggested
in the
bible, then when and where in the natural world
does intelligence begin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo


-Sean.


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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D.A. Riley" <permascape@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] biofuel
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:

<20060710200847.64869.qmail@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

We have a 1980 VW Rabbit that is our commuter
car, gets 43 miles per gallon. We are running
it on Biodiesel, thanks to local activism by
leaders in the biofuel movement at Pacific
Biofuel, in collaboration with USA fuel
station (mainstream providers of gasoline).



http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2006/June/10/local/stories/01local.htm

or



http://www.metroactive.com/metro-santa-cruz/06.07.06/nuz-0623.html

Sure, this is Santa Cruz California, the Left
coast. Home of many environmental experiments
and fine weather year round. We don't kid
ourselves that this is THE answer for the
world. As for now, it is a solution which will
most likely lead to other solutions by
introducing a wider population of conventional
thinkers to alternatives in fuel usage.

Making convenient the access of biofuels at a
standard filling station provides a point of
education for others who have no idea there's
an alternative. Each time I fill up, I talk
with people of every stripe who then become
interested. I don't curse them either because
we all have to start learning somewhere, as I
did.

Think diesel generators, tractors, buses,
18-wheelers and other work vehicles that are
throwing amazing amounts of particulates into
the air...and imagine it smelling like a
cleaner fish n' chips instead.

Mr. Pittman was right on with his comments
and I'm slowly heading in that direction, for
now I'll be decending thataway in a biofueled
vehicle.

D.A.


Each One Teach One




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 13:39:10 -0500
From: "Kathy Evans"
Subject: [permaculture] oil fuel
To: "permaculture"

Message-ID:
<410-22006709183910421@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I know of someone here in St. Louis who has
what she calls a "greasel"
vehicle, converted from diesel, I think, that
is powered entirely by
discarded used oil from places like McDonald's.
I'm sure besides being good
for the environment this is good for for
McDonald's karma as well as her
own! I don't know much about emissions from
burning such fuel. Kathy








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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 16:47:04 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."
<lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: [permaculture] BBC NEWS |
Science/Nature | Heritage body 'no'
to carbon cuts
To: permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <44B2BCC8.5080609@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
format=flowed

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Heritage body 'no'
to carbon cuts

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5164476.stm>
Last Updated: Monday, 10 July 2006, 09:54 GMT
10:54 UK

Coral (World Resources Institute)
Protection has been sought for two of the
world's major coral reefs
The World Heritage Committee (WHC) looks set to
reject a motion calling for cuts in greenhouse
gas emissions.

The WHC meeting in Lithuania heard evidence
that 125 sites including the Himalayas and the
Great Barrier Reef are at
risk from climate change.

Countries which are members of the WHC are
legally obliged to protect sites. Campaign
groups say this can only be done
by cutting emissions.

The Committee is due to make its decision on
Monday.

But a draft resolution circulated in advance of
the vote suggests that delegates are likely to
reject the motion.

The world is entitled to expect better from the
Committee
Peter Roderick
Environmental campaigners have reacted with
frustration, and blamed the move on lobbying by
governments opposed to
restrictions on greenhouse gas emissions.

"We are extremely angry that the World Heritage
Committee has not taken any meaningful action
to protect some of the
most important sites on Earth from climate
change," said Peter Roderick, co-director of
the Climate Justice Programme.

"They are good at drawing up wonderfully
drafted documents, but the idea of actually
doing anything seems to pose a problem.

"The world is entitled to expect better from
the Committee; bending over backwards as a
result of fear of the US and
Canada will tarnish its reputation."

'Irreparable' damage



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:25:16 -0700
From: "maria morehead" <spiralmother@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] the biofuel
illusion
To: permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:


<5a4c19e50607101425p17e41344wa21dba9f0e96440b@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed

What a great site! Might you know of a website
specifically addressing how
you did the home heating conversion necessary
or other leads to the Seattle
area for this?

thanks!
M

On 7/9/06, Charles de Matas
<cdematas@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Kathyann wrote: My home furnace ran 10%
filtered restaurant waste oil last
> 2
> winters without
> incident.
>
> Great way to use WVO.
>
>
> <<Good resources at

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html
> (a favorite site of mine) >>
>
> I've only recently come across this site
while looking for articles by Sir
> Albert Howard.
>
> Charles.
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new
MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.com/
>
>
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> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>

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>


------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 42, Issue 14
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