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  • From: "AdriAnne" <joyfulsoul@earthlink.net>
  • To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] Help
  • Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:33:01 -0700

Thank you for taking my name off of this
daily mailing. AdriAnne Joy


I found I could say things with color & shapes
that I couldn't say in any other way ~
things I had no words for.
Georgia O'Keeffe
----- Original Message ----- From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:55 PM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 32, Issue 36


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Today's Topics:

1. Re: The Hidden Hand -> brainstorming (Sean Maley)
2. Re: Tithonia Fertilises Tired Soil | Kampala (Steve Diver)
3. Re: [permalearnersuk] IPC8 (Graham)
4. Re: [permalearnersuk] IPC8 (William Genest)
5. Re: [permalearnersuk] IPC8 (Michael Kramer)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sean Maley <semaley@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Hidden Hand -> brainstorming
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20050922162143.7986.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

There is already a group discussion on this topic,
having been known as "Land and People" in some
threads. Here in the NYC area, Green Phoenix has been
working diligently as a model for other bioregions to
duplicate, with the PALS network (derived from the
"Land and People" thread) connecting the bioregions in
terms of idea sharing. As mentioned previously, Green
Phoenix follows the Henry George view of economics
(owning land is like owning air and water; except
withholding air thankfully draws a murder charge, at
least occasionally).

Our model is to do outreach via permaculture and
sustainability classes and fund raise via sustainable
business development. With our pool of emerging land
stewards and funds from donations and our
participating businesses, we will purchase land for
ecovillages and buildings for urban groups. Green
Phoenix will act as the CLT for these imagined
"properties". To be clear, Green Phoenix will only
hold the token for the land (imaginary property), not
for the actual property built on the land; this has
nothing to do with a money discussion, which is how
some individuals take it. Not fully discussed is what
to do about a village of land stewards who are
intentionally out of compliance with a pre-arranged
sustainable land use plan (just wanted a home and
didn't really care about the land).

Our land stewards will use permaculture to increase
the biodiversity of the land we hold for them as a
CLT, but they occupy. Green Phoenix will be the
external entity exposed to the "system", while the
land stewards can work to secure their self-reliance
off the grid. It will be the mission of Green Phoenix
to secure people's freedom from the grid. With many
villages and agreements for mobility between them,
more folks will be able to make the leap, as if
leaping from a fire (hence Green Phoenix).

According to the way Henry George's concepts work, our
removal of "low" and "middle" income laborers will
help push, via supply and demand, wage wealth up at
the expense of rent wealth (not our modern definition
of rent, please see "Progress and Poverty" for the
definition intended here). As we keep pulling
laborers out of the grid, pressuring wages up, we
attack it from two directions: the abandonment many of
us are already attempting and rent destabilization,
which is how the grid manages control (wage wealth and
rent wealth are inversely related; interest wealth, or
the increased value from applying labor to land,
tracks with wage wealth). This attack is subtle.
"Reducing the burdens of government" would be a
legitimate charitable pursuit. So this plan, by
pulling people out of the grid, is a charitable
pursuit worthy and attractive to "wealthy" individuals
looking for a feel good. Contemporary economists
reject Henry Georges ideas, so won't believe it can
work. These same people will be excited by the
perceived ensuing tax benefits from what they hope to
be a reduction in welfare costs; slackers will likely
stay behind to sap the system.

The more land we rescue, the more people we can pull
out of the fire. The question is what the critical
point will be for labor wealth collapse within the
grid. The land stewards outside the grid will need to
maintain traditional economic activity, not as a
dependence, but more like a video game. This is
important, as the grid may otherwise fight back before
we are ready to pull the plug on it. Where to explore
strategically how to distract the cronies, while this
happens and setting up appropriate businesses will be
the part I haven't yet thought as much about as the
rest. This would have to be catered to each
bioregion, so as to not stand out in terms of local
fashions, customs, sensibilities, resources, etc.

Generally, it would make sense to encourage local
groups to organize into tribes of a sort. These
tribes would essentially be a purchase and investment
club. The goals of any tribe would be a mutual
financial security, which includes an eventual common
property purchase and development to secure themselves
from the effects of rent wealth. Urban groups would
pool to purchase apartment buildings and become an
expanded CSA consumer (go beyond food from the farm
and supply labor to a small economy with a farm).
Rural groups would develop a property to be the
farming part of the urban and rural connection. The
city provides cooperative style labor (local
currency), while the rural arm provides natural
resources for the urban masses to apply themselves.

Just brainstorming, take it easy on me. My interest
is perfecting these ideas, not debating them.


-Sean.


-Sean.

--- "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net> wrote:

Martin Naylor wrote:

> one way to get the planet together would be to get
all the groups who know what'-s going on and select
a group to form a super group,
> with money suplied from the original groups like
green peace wilderness permaculture the lists goes
on till about 90% of the people
> on the planet are represented, with a group who
has a lot of money to act with wisdom, this idea was
originaly in grist

True pyramid power; a "good" pyramid scheme to save
the Earth and its
peoples. Of course, it would be decentralized but
networked with
approved decision-making algorythms at the data
storage/processing level
(remember Mother in Alien, for sci-fi fans?).
Who would form the baseline group, i.e. the base of
the pyramid, the men
and women in the street? Where would they come from
and how would they
be pursuaded to participate and how would they be
connected to the
communications/data/decision-making network?
>
> souscayrous <souscayrous@tiscali.fr> wrote:
> Hello everyone, why is this hand hidden? There is
nothing hidden about the
> fertility of earth except the human practices that
reduce fertility; it is
> only when we regard the infertile world we have
made that we begin to
> question whether the earth can provide. The earth
can support not only the
> current human population but current non-human
life too, providing we allow
> it to provide.
>
> We might also wonder at the use of the term
'surplus', to whom is this
> 'surplus' surplus? It has been written that even
the loss of a single straw
> can allow an agriculture to go awry.
>
> We have created myriad worlds with which to
disguise earth; God, gods,
> money, science, Progress, metaphysics, even words.
We are permaculturalists
> or respond to Permaculture because we recognise
the problems that we have
> created, what we have still to realise is that no
new knowledge or no new
> 'hidden hand' is going to save the earth for us.
What are we going to learn
> from new moon shots? What are we going to learn
from bioengineering? A few
> of us might very well learn to extend our lives
beyond 100 years (while the
> average age of mortality continues to fall), but
what is it exactly we need
> this extended life for?
>
> We are the species that invented knowing and our
knowledge allows us to
> believe the universe is centred upon us. But there
have been ages without
> humanity and there will be ages again without us,
how then will our vaunted
> knowledge look?
>
> Jamie
> Souscayrous

Hello Jamie, after a long while. You write so well.

Cheers,

LL

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:24:30 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Tithonia Fertilises Tired Soil | Kampala
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <4332E8CE.2020507@ncat.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Most people in alternative agriculture have read
Plowman's Folly.

No-till has really good applications, but it doesn't
fit every situation. It doesn't address the needs of
every farm and cropping system. Improperly
employed with inadequate tools and timing, no-till
can result in a crop disaster via weed competition.

Green manures and tillage are valueable tools in the
farmer's and gardener's toolbox, and play a key role
in organic soil management.

Go back and re-read the article, and the bulletin, and think
about microbes and rock minerals, organic acids, enzymes,
mineralization, and mineral cycling that you get from
integrating green manuring with rock phosphates, using
local plant biomass sources combined with local microflora.

Add the tithonia article to the "permaculture in Africa"
virtual library.

Steve Diver
Northwest Arkansas, Zone 6b



>I would strongly suggest reading "The Plowman's
>Folly" by Edward H. Faulkner published in 1943. His
>ideas are quite interesting and most helpful.
>Especially his statement about disking in green manure
>crops, his experiments and results.
>
>This is available from www.soilandhealth.org at no
>charge.
>
>Leon






------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:46:42 +0100
From: Graham <grahamburnett@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] [permalearnersuk] IPC8
To: Andy Langford <andylang@gn.apc.org>
Cc: "Permaculture Magazine, Maddy Harland" <maddy@permaculture.co.uk>,
Permaculture Association <office@permaculture.org.uk>, PermaLearners
<permalearnersuk@yahoogroups.com>, permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Permaculture UK list
<permaculture_uk@yahoogroups.co.uk>
Message-ID: <43333452.8080409@blueyonder.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

How do we get there without using up our lifetimes supply of carbon
points????

Andy Langford wrote:

IPC 8 Invitation letter

Boa Vista do Ramos, Amazonas, Brazil
September 8th 2005

To the many members of the world Permaculture community

I would like to honor and thank the members of both the Danish and
Croatian Permaculture Associations and the larger European
Permaculture community that made IPC 7 such a wonderful gathering. In
particular I would like to salute the venerable Tony Anderson whose
strength of purpose and generalship reincarnated the IPC event after
so many years of dormancy.

The traditional rotation between continents has positioned South
America as next in line for hosting IPC 8. During plenary vote in
Croatia in June 2005, Brazil was officially selected as its next
venue. The event, as decided, will be held in May of 2007.

As the international project coordinator for Permacultura America
Latina (PAL), which is the coordinating body for the Rede
Permacultura do Brazil (RPB), I will be assuming the role of IPC 8
coordinator. Permit me to confirm that this event will be held as
stated and I look to your help and experience for guidance.

During the last two months, and aside from the standard Convergence
program, various themes for the Conference have been bandied around
and one that has been consistently responded to has been the issue of
Green Economics. With the condition of the world monetary system
increasingly uncertain the opportunity to devote several days to the
full array of topics represented by this theme, has, arguably,
arisen. In short, we have before us the opportunity to hoist the
banner of Permaculture on an International Economics Conference.

Green Economics also represents an opportunity to engage the Latin
American private sector, particularly in light of so much of the
planet?s remaining natural resources concentrated on this continent.
With so many sustainable development plans already being assembled to
plunder these irreplaceable resources, it hardly needs explaining the
urgency to clarify green economic misconceptions and clarify
inevitable possibilities. After all, at present, the bankers have
most of us by the balls.

Australian permaculturists have offered to set up an IPC website as
the technological mechanism for communications. The US Credit Union
has offered its service and even possible funding. Previous IPC event
organizers have likewise confirmed promises to provide whatever
information and assistance may be available.

For my part I am poised to begin the proposal and fundraising process
and other foundations have offered to participate. Specifically the
Swiss based Avina Foundation has offered to convene a pre conference
gathering in early 2006 to articulate the final Conference agenda.

Thus my friends I leave it to you to provide some feedback as soon as
possible to justify both my personal and institutional resolve and
reach that point of no return.

I remain, as always, moist and tropically yours

Ali Sharif

ahmadalisharif@yahoo.com











------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:14:36 -0400
From: William Genest <genest@pivot.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] [permalearnersuk] IPC8
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <2CDAC5B7-D377-4000-A261-0E7E8C474103@pivot.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed

Yeah good point Graham but maybe it's like Bill says about using
heavy machinery - it is worth it if you will end up creating more
energy than you use although how you'd quantify that I have no
idea.... I'm getting a Prius - does that count ? :-)
On Sep 22, 2005, at 6:46 PM, Graham wrote:

How do we get there without using up our lifetimes supply of carbon
points????

Andy Langford wrote:


IPC 8 Invitation letter

Boa Vista do Ramos, Amazonas, Brazil
September 8th 2005

To the many members of the world Permaculture community

I would like to honor and thank the members of both the Danish and
Croatian Permaculture Associations and the larger European
Permaculture community that made IPC 7 such a wonderful gathering. In
particular I would like to salute the venerable Tony Anderson whose
strength of purpose and generalship reincarnated the IPC event after
so many years of dormancy.

The traditional rotation between continents has positioned South
America as next in line for hosting IPC 8. During plenary vote in
Croatia in June 2005, Brazil was officially selected as its next
venue. The event, as decided, will be held in May of 2007.

As the international project coordinator for Permacultura America
Latina (PAL), which is the coordinating body for the Rede
Permacultura do Brazil (RPB), I will be assuming the role of IPC 8
coordinator. Permit me to confirm that this event will be held as
stated and I look to your help and experience for guidance.

During the last two months, and aside from the standard Convergence
program, various themes for the Conference have been bandied around
and one that has been consistently responded to has been the issue of
Green Economics. With the condition of the world monetary system
increasingly uncertain the opportunity to devote several days to the
full array of topics represented by this theme, has, arguably,
arisen. In short, we have before us the opportunity to hoist the
banner of Permaculture on an International Economics Conference.

Green Economics also represents an opportunity to engage the Latin
American private sector, particularly in light of so much of the
planet?s remaining natural resources concentrated on this continent.
With so many sustainable development plans already being assembled to
plunder these irreplaceable resources, it hardly needs explaining the
urgency to clarify green economic misconceptions and clarify
inevitable possibilities. After all, at present, the bankers have
most of us by the balls.

Australian permaculturists have offered to set up an IPC website as
the technological mechanism for communications. The US Credit Union
has offered its service and even possible funding. Previous IPC event
organizers have likewise confirmed promises to provide whatever
information and assistance may be available.

For my part I am poised to begin the proposal and fundraising process
and other foundations have offered to participate. Specifically the
Swiss based Avina Foundation has offered to convene a pre conference
gathering in early 2006 to articulate the final Conference agenda.

Thus my friends I leave it to you to provide some feedback as soon as
possible to justify both my personal and institutional resolve and
reach that point of no return.

I remain, as always, moist and tropically yours

Ali Sharif

ahmadalisharif@yahoo.com










_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture



Best Regards,

William Genest

- Founder Green Mountain Permaculture Institute of Vermont
Solutions, Sustenance, Sustainability
www.greenmountainpermaculture.com

- Creator "Regeneration - The Art of Sustainable Living"
From "Something-Must-be-Done" to Something we can do !
www.regenerationshow.com

- Ecological Coordinator
Club St.Paul Ecological Golf Course

- Vice-President Green Party of Quebec "pour nous et nos enfants"
www.pvq.qc.ca

- National Spokesperson Green Party of Canada
"The Future is Now ! "
www.greenparty.ca





------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:55:46 -1000
From: "Michael Kramer" <MKramer@hawaii.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] [permalearnersuk] IPC8
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001501c5bfe1$ed237d40$020aa8c0@inspiron2650>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
reply-type=original

I'm please that Ali is wishing to focus on green economics at the next IPC,
as it's been something I've been focused in recent years. The failings of
the World Bank have been noted by the leaders of that institution now, and
we in the social investment community have been meeting with them to examine
ways to fund microcredit and community development financial institutions
rather than governments (which have obviously mismanaged many loan
programs). In addition, there is a new global currency beginning to be
developed by Bernard Litaer (who invented the Euro) - it's called the Terra,
and it will be a global parallel currency tied to specific hard assets,
which means it's a long-term currency which people would desire to hold
long-term rather than trade against other artificial (and essentially
valueless) currencies. Currency is one thing which pits nations against one
another and has led to tremendous inequities and exploitive practices. While
the social investment movement attempts to hold corporations accountable, it
is critical that the banks, credit unions, loan funds, and such be empowered
to put real cash in the hands of real local people so they may build local
economies from the inside out. It's fine for outsiders to support these
institutions financially by loaning them money (something one can do through
the stock market now), but ultimately what's happening (amazingly enough) is
that the IMF and World Bank are realizing the poor return on their
investments, and with so much foreigh debt recently being forgiven by the
G8, they are essentially starting over and looking for good local economic
initiatives to support. I agree with Ali that the ethical imperatives of
permaculture are slowly inflitrating the mainstream, and this is something
I've been actively involved in. Last year at the annual Social Responsible
Investment conference in Keystone, Gil Friend of the Natural Step brought up
permaculture and even showed some slides of Vint Lawrence's Apache Creek
Ranch outside Santa Fe (Vint, if you're reading, I wonder if you knew
this!). It was an amazing experience for Christopher Peck, Jonathan
Scharfman, and myself (3 longtime permaculture teachers from the Southwest)
to witness 500 financial professionals from around the world getting excited
about permaculture, and I have followed up and tried to build on this
introduction. I have been plugging the Permaculture Credit Union quite a lot
over the years to this group, despite my inability to persuade the
Permaculture Credit Union that they absolutely must be at these annual
events because it's a great way to get depositors, as this is a group
managing $2.3 trillion.

Anyway, I've been intrigued by the recent thread on money and am aware of
how angry people are at how money has been used on this planet for 170 years
by Western societies. As a recovering anti-capitalist, however, I can tell
you that things are slowly changing, and it's because eco-people are getting
into mainstream institutions and movements and starting to build awareness,
and they are being far more welcomed than ever before. It would be nice if
we could direct investment towards the hybrid or solar divisions of
multinational companies in order to support only their regenerative
activities (but then, it would also be nice if we could decide which part of
the budget our taxes could be directed to). Remember, money has no value,
only that which we ascribe to it; it can be used for tremendously positive
things, and we mustn't let our cynicism interfere with our capacity to use
it wisely to reinvest surplus towards the permaculture ethics.

-----
Michael Kramer, M.Ed., AIF (Accredited Investment Fiduciary)
Natural Investment Services
P.O. Box 390595
Keauhou, HI 96739

Michael@NaturalInvesting.com
www.NaturalInvesting.com
808-331-0910
Toll-free: 888-779-1500

Socially Conscious Portfolio Management & Hourly Consulting
Sustainability Strategic Planning and Education

"Be the change you wish to see in the world."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- From: "William Genest" <genest@pivot.net>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] [permalearnersuk] IPC8


Yeah good point Graham but maybe it's like Bill says about using
heavy machinery - it is worth it if you will end up creating more
energy than you use although how you'd quantify that I have no
idea.... I'm getting a Prius - does that count ? :-)
On Sep 22, 2005, at 6:46 PM, Graham wrote:

How do we get there without using up our lifetimes supply of carbon
points????

Andy Langford wrote:


IPC 8 Invitation letter

Boa Vista do Ramos, Amazonas, Brazil
September 8th 2005

To the many members of the world Permaculture community

I would like to honor and thank the members of both the Danish and
Croatian Permaculture Associations and the larger European
Permaculture community that made IPC 7 such a wonderful gathering. In
particular I would like to salute the venerable Tony Anderson whose
strength of purpose and generalship reincarnated the IPC event after
so many years of dormancy.

The traditional rotation between continents has positioned South
America as next in line for hosting IPC 8. During plenary vote in
Croatia in June 2005, Brazil was officially selected as its next
venue. The event, as decided, will be held in May of 2007.

As the international project coordinator for Permacultura America
Latina (PAL), which is the coordinating body for the Rede
Permacultura do Brazil (RPB), I will be assuming the role of IPC 8
coordinator. Permit me to confirm that this event will be held as
stated and I look to your help and experience for guidance.

During the last two months, and aside from the standard Convergence
program, various themes for the Conference have been bandied around
and one that has been consistently responded to has been the issue of
Green Economics. With the condition of the world monetary system
increasingly uncertain the opportunity to devote several days to the
full array of topics represented by this theme, has, arguably,
arisen. In short, we have before us the opportunity to hoist the
banner of Permaculture on an International Economics Conference.

Green Economics also represents an opportunity to engage the Latin
American private sector, particularly in light of so much of the
planet?s remaining natural resources concentrated on this continent.
With so many sustainable development plans already being assembled to
plunder these irreplaceable resources, it hardly needs explaining the
urgency to clarify green economic misconceptions and clarify
inevitable possibilities. After all, at present, the bankers have
most of us by the balls.

Australian permaculturists have offered to set up an IPC website as
the technological mechanism for communications. The US Credit Union
has offered its service and even possible funding. Previous IPC event
organizers have likewise confirmed promises to provide whatever
information and assistance may be available.

For my part I am poised to begin the proposal and fundraising process
and other foundations have offered to participate. Specifically the
Swiss based Avina Foundation has offered to convene a pre conference
gathering in early 2006 to articulate the final Conference agenda.

Thus my friends I leave it to you to provide some feedback as soon as
possible to justify both my personal and institutional resolve and
reach that point of no return.

I remain, as always, moist and tropically yours

Ali Sharif

ahmadalisharif@yahoo.com










_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture



Best Regards,

William Genest

- Founder Green Mountain Permaculture Institute of Vermont
Solutions, Sustenance, Sustainability
www.greenmountainpermaculture.com

- Creator "Regeneration - The Art of Sustainable Living"
From "Something-Must-be-Done" to Something we can do !
www.regenerationshow.com

- Ecological Coordinator
Club St.Paul Ecological Golf Course

- Vice-President Green Party of Quebec "pour nous et nos enfants"
www.pvq.qc.ca

- National Spokesperson Green Party of Canada
"The Future is Now ! "
www.greenparty.ca



_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture




------------------------------

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


End of permaculture Digest, Vol 32, Issue 36
********************************************




  • [permaculture] Help, AdriAnne, 09/23/2005

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