permaculture

[eric + michiko <emstorm@metro.net>]

In an attempt to summarize, I have grouped some of what Georg has written:

- superimposing their private value system onto the rest of the world.
- 'design the world'
- to continue the dominance game 
- the *my idea is better than your's* crap that strives for dominance
- fighting each other and making each other wrong

I take these in their contexts to mean, "forcing ones views on others is
unpleasant and ultimately pointless".

 
- only people have problems, the environment doesn't
- i do trust nature/life/evolution a whole lot
- in the long rung (geologically speaking) all 'mistakes' are corrected
- it is certainly going to correct itself
- there are goals to be met that are way beyond your and my comprehension
- i see us as work in progress
- everything humans do is "natural"
- don't think that all those people with apparently different agendas are
'wrong' 
- if you feel [like] killing. . .exxon-executives. . .go ahead (sarcastic?)
- each and every one is only responsible for our own actions or neglects 
- do what you feel good about

And these to mean, "nature/life/evolution is in control, everything is
okay, so relax and do what makes you feel good".


- i apply myself for...a broader vision...*higher complexity and
       harmonious organization*
- dig your garden, plant trees along the roadside, educate your
      neighbor's kids, get this local seed exchange going, give
      perennial spinach plants to whomever wants them

And these are what make _you_ feel good, with the thought that, although it
makes no difference in the long run, it might lead to humans being around a
little longer.


I think I understand your point of view now (corrections appreciated);
thanks for the clarification.  Here are my comments:

To be consistent wouldn't you need to accept domination as having its
function in the bigger scheme of things?  I personally agree that its not
so good, but it fits with my ideas about some things being inherently good
and others being inherently bad.  There is a wide range of responses
between "domination" (forcing your views on others) and "do what makes you
feel good" (let everyone do what they want).  In particular I am thinking
about things like working together (willing cooperation) to change how we
do some things.  And the motivation is not just "feeling good" (although it
is possible you mean this on a more spiritual level) but more altruistic,
"doing good for others".  Yes, this requires a, possibly faulty, judgement,
but that's where these kinds of discussions come in; people need to work
together to decide what directions to move in next.  It seems too selfish
to only concern yourself with yourself and those you choose.  In my
opinion, lack of concern for others is a big human problem that spills over
effecting a lot of the planet.  Yes, some of us may "survive" this
selfishness, but I can't accept needlessly killing as okay just because in
the end that individual makes no difference.

As you can see, I have trouble with the popular ethical relativism where
"whatever an individual thinks is right is right for them" and "you should
just mind your own business and let others do whatever they want".  This
has lead to the lack of compassion, cohesion and the ability to cooperate
and the emphasis on consumption in our society.

I also feel it is worth repeating what I wrote in my last post, since it
seems to point out the difference in our views:
> Perhaps you are speaking from this perspective, saying that hundreds
> millions of years from now humans may not exist but life in some form will
> still be around, or if it's not then that's okay too.  Can't really argue
> with that, but that's mainly because it's all on a time scale irrelevant to
> humans.  Thinking on this scale doesn't seem to lead to much of anything
> for humans.
That time scale leaves me feeling empty and seems to give a green light to
hedonistic short sighted pursuits, which you might find geologically
trivial.  I can't quite see how you connect this large scale thinking with
"dig your garden, plant trees along the roadside, educate your neighbor's
kids, get this local seed exchange going, give perennial spinach plants to
whomever wants them", unless you just happen to enjoy gardening.

If you don't mind a little more detail, could you go into what you mean
by"makes you feel good"?  I guess my curiosity comes from wanting to be
able to see things from other points of view.  


Thanks for the discussion.  What do the rest of you think?

Eric Storm