permaculture

[Lee Flier <lflier@mindspring.com>]

Dan wrote:

>Well in the 1940s, when I was a child, everyone had a poly culture garden if
>they had any land at all.
<... lots of great stuff snipped... >
>This is from my own personal experience as a man 10 years
>younger than Mollison.  

Yes.  Sad isn't it, how quickly people forget?  Until a few years ago most
people didn't even know that hemp used to be grown for industry in the US.
I think most RURAL folks who are your age and older are aware of these
things, although many of them jumped on the bandwagon of the
chemical/monocultural "revolution" and felt ashamed of their former
practices. Then again even a lot of the older farmers I know around this
area don't have a clue about any of the things you mention.  I don't really
think most people were aware of what they were giving up when they gave up
organics and polyculture and self-sufficiency - most of which they didn't
practice for environmental reasons but because it was the most efficient
thing at the time, and when chemical companies and social planners
convinced them that industrial methods were MORE efficient, they listened.

But anyway this is just a gentle reminder that although these things may be
taken for granted in your personal experience, for the average Joe it just
isn't.  People's eyes light up when I talk to them about using trees on
their farms and the like - it just sounds like the Garden of Eden to them.
Sad that we lost connection to such obvious things, but a joy to watch
people rediscover them.

>...I believed, and still do, that novice teachers
>can do more harm than good.  ... We really don't have time to
>fix yet more mistakes....  Good intentions are
>dangerous, sometimes, if not harnessed to a rigorous regard for quality and
>respect enough for Mother Nature to take time to learn, really understand
>well, what she is up to before intervening.  There are ways to accelerate
>this learning process, but a three-week design course is, by itself not
>enough.
<... more great stuff snipped... >
>The people we are teaching, when they really live on the land, are the best
>source of information.  Again, quoting Bill, we are looking for the "most
>benefit for the least change."

Your point is well taken and I agree.  Bill himself stressed this often
when he spoke of going to teach in impoverished countries.  And I fully
support and really appreciate your later (very thoughtful) comments about
the local people knowing much more than the teachers about local
conditions.  Listening and asking questions would be the highest priority
in these cases.

I'll say again because I guess it wasn't clear enough (and we apply
permaculture in so many different situations):  my earlier comments about
experimentation pertain mostly to industrialized areas, and to the zones
outside our front doors.  I don't see a problem with taking an acre or two
and using it as both a laboratory and a healing space.  It seems obvious
that you wouldn't do this to a fragile ecosystem or one that already
supports a knowledgable population - but in most of mainstream USA and
Europe that isn't the case.  And if anything it's mainstream USA that needs
the most education, because we are doing the most damage of the most
blatantly ignorant kind - thus Bill's comment that even after only two
weeks we could hardly do worse.

>I think everyone who has really gotten the point of a full permaculture
>design course (whatever that is nowadays) is competent to teach weekend
>workshops if they feel competent.  Beyond that, I think we should exercise
>restraint to learn how to do things right, because we don't have time to do
>them over.  Yes, I disagree with many in the permaculture movement on that
>point.  I also think that we should not prosletize until everyone who wants
>to learn permaculture of their own concern has their fill.  Then we might
>start to think about it.

Right.  As I said earlier I'm not interested in proselytizing - only in
setting examples that people will WANT to follow.  Enthusiasm is infectious.

>Well, we have gotten a ways from guilds.  I'm letting a number of Lee's
>points go unanswered because I think the discussion is getting to be of
>interest to only a few people.  I'd be happy to comment, if I have something
>to add, to people not yet involved in the discussion.  To me, the issue of
>preparation for teaching is far more important than whether or not we approve
>of the concept of guilds.  So I have made one statement on that.

And a good one.  I don't think it's of interest to only a few people,
because most of us at some point or another probably have taught or will
teach permaculture - on purpose or by accident.  And it is still really
important as you say how we pass on information, and how we prepare to
share it with others, even if not on a professional basis.

Thanks for bringing some further enlightenment to the discussion.

= Lee =


==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
http://lflier.home.mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.