Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

[marcus AT loyno.edu]

I just got Nikki’s note in response to my posting
about the couple whose child started acquiring
“Chimp.”

I have generally similar memories (the year pass and my
recollections fade), but I have some different impressions
of Walker’s views.  I don’t recall him holding
that animals “were unable to communicate,” but
instead that human language was qualitatively distinct.  He
may have invoked Peircean “Thirdness” as his
standard.  

He certainly rejected (with strong arguments) the notions of
some of the Chimp language advocates that Chimps and humans
were close to being equivalent.

I want to finish Hess’s book before I comment on where
the empirical jury is today.  I sort of doubt that anyone
has done anything that would force Percy to change his
fundamental  position.  I’ve seen some notes that some
of the Chimps after they have finished their time in
research exhibit symptoms that might indicate existential
loneliness.  Troubling.

More later,

Marcus Smith


----- Original Message Follows -----
From: percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 53, Issue 4
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:21:36 -0400

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Chimp is a challenge (Nikkibar AT aol.com)
>    2. Re: Chimp is a challenge (RHONDA MCDONNELL)
>    3. Re: Chimp is a challenge (Karey Perkins)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 EDT
> From: Nikkibar AT aol.com
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <c18.2f331297.35187d5c AT aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Dear Marcus,
>  
> You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running
> argument that i  carried  on with Walker for a great many
> years. He always asserted that animals  of the  "lower
> orders" were unable to communicate -- not only with us but
> with  one  another, while I held to the view that 1) he
> was probably wrong and or 2)  that  in any event we could
> never be certain but 3) that it was a measure of our  
> hubris to deny the possibility. As times have gone forward
> since his death, the 
>  empirical jury is still out in my view, but I think my
> position grows  stronger  day by day.
>  
> Nikki
> 
> 
> 
> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
> the video on AOL  Home.      
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?vid
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:21:27 -0700
> From: RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>     <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY116-W26CEE5DE085A31FBAD7155E4FD0 AT phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Nikki--
>  
> Can you elaborate a little on the debate you refer to? Was
> Walker absolute in his stance, or did he recognize that
> dyadic communication exists between the "lower orders"? 
> I'm wondering if it was triadic communication that was the
> sticking point for him, and therefore the true point of
> argument? --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more
> deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific
> and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea
> of who he is or what he is doing."                        
>              Walker Percy
> 
> 
> From: Nikkibar AT aol.comDate: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24
> -0400To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: [percy-l]
> Chimp is a challenge
> 
> Dear Marcus,
>  
> You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running
> argument that i carried on with Walker for a great many
> years. He always asserted that animals of the "lower
> orders" were unable to communicate -- not only with us but
> with one another, while I held to the view that 1) he was
> probably wrong and or 2) that in any event we could never
> be certain but 3) that it was a measure of our hubris to
> deny the possibility. As times have gone forward since his
> death, the empirical jury is still out in my view, but I
> think my position grows stronger day by day.
>  
> Nikki
> 
> 
> Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on
> AOL Home.
> __________________________________________________________
> _______ Test your Star IQ
>
http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:47:52 -0400
> From: "Karey Perkins" <karey1 AT charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'"
>     <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <001001c88dad$46209c20$6401a8c0@Karey>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Rhonda, 
> 
>  
> 
> Of course, Nikki knows more about what Walker said
> personally, but in his writings he always maintained that
> chimps and other animals could communicate dyadically -
> but their sign language and other communication never rose
> above the "sign" level to symbol.  He seemed pretty
> adamant about that, even though it was not written in
> stone in the general field, as Nikki says.  Interestingly,
> Susanne Langer, his mentor in symbol (of sorts), felt
> otherwise - that higher primates were capable of
> rudimentary symbol, and gives examples in her "Philosophy
> in a New Key."  For Walker it seems to be a qualitative
> difference; for Langer, it was quantitative.
> 
>  
> 
> Karey
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:21 AM
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> 
>  
> 
> Nikki--
>  
> Can you elaborate a little on the debate you refer to? Was
> Walker absolute in his stance, or did he recognize that
> dyadic communication exists between the "lower orders"? 
> I'm wondering if it was triadic communication that was the
> sticking point for him, and therefore the true point of
> argument?
> 
> 
> 
> --Rhonda 
> 
> "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual,
> because in spite of great scientific and technological
> advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or
> what he is doing."
>   
>                                     Walker Percy
> 
>  
> 
> 
>   _____  
> 
> 
> From: Nikkibar AT aol.com
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 -0400
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Marcus,
> 
>  
> 
> You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running
> argument that i carried on with Walker for a great many
> years. He always asserted that animals of the "lower
> orders" were unable to communicate -- not only with us but
> with one another, while I held to the view that 1) he was
> probably wrong and or 2) that in any event we could never
> be certain but 3) that it was a measure of our hubris to
> deny the possibility. As times have gone forward since his
> death, the empirical jury is still out in my view, but I
> think my position grows stronger day by day.
> 
>  
> 
> Nikki
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   _____  
> 
> 
> Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
> <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?vid
> eo=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001>  the video on AOL Home.
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> Test your Star IQ Play now!
> <http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpe
> t_HMTAGMAR> 
> 
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