Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

["Michael and Susan Rapkoch" <13rose AT bresnan.net>]

Isn't the entire question first the meaning of the word "communicate?"  I join 
this discussion late and have not reviewed all the archives but Percy would 
certainly agree that language, whether dyadic or triadic requires, for proper 
analysis, clarity and ultimately agreement over the meaning of terms. Not even 
triadic agents can communicate without an established unity of discourse 
involving meaning.  When a child names he "symbolizes," i.e. gives a verbal 
expression to the object symbolized.  The child will make many mistakes at the 
level of both genera and species which must be corrected to allow meaning to 
enter his world and communication to follow.


On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:21:36 -0400
 percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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>   1. Re: Chimp is a challenge (Nikkibar AT aol.com)
>   2. Re: Chimp is a challenge (RHONDA MCDONNELL)
>   3. Re: Chimp is a challenge (Karey Perkins)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 EDT
> From: Nikkibar AT aol.com
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <c18.2f331297.35187d5c AT aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Marcus,
>
> You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running argument that i  carried 
> on with Walker for a great many years. He always asserted that animals  of 
> the 
> "lower orders" were unable to communicate -- not only with us but with  one 
> another, while I held to the view that 1) he was probably wrong and or 2) 
> that 
> in any event we could never be certain but 3) that it was a measure of our  
> hubris to deny the possibility. As times have gone forward since his death, 
> the 
> empirical jury is still out in my view, but I think my position grows 
> stronger  day by day.
>
> Nikki
>
>
>
> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL 
> Home.      
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:21:27 -0700
> From: RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY116-W26CEE5DE085A31FBAD7155E4FD0 AT phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Nikki--
>
> Can you elaborate a little on the debate you refer to? Was Walker absolute 
> in his stance, or did he recognize that dyadic communication exists between 
> the "lower orders"?  I'm wondering if it was triadic communication that was 
> the sticking point for him, and therefore the true point of argument?
> --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in 
> spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the 
> faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." 
>                                     Walker Percy
>
>
> From: Nikkibar AT aol.comDate: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 -0400To: 
> percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
>
> Dear Marcus,
>
> You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running argument that i carried 
> on with Walker for a great many years. He always asserted that animals of the 
> "lower orders" were unable to communicate -- not only with us but with one 
> another, while I held to the view that 1) he was probably wrong and or 2) 
> that in any event we could never be certain but 3) that it was a measure of 
> our hubris to deny the possibility. As times have gone forward since his 
> death, the empirical jury is still out in my view, but I think my position 
> grows stronger day by day.
>
> Nikki
>
>
> Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Test your Star IQ
> http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:47:52 -0400
> From: "Karey Perkins" <karey1 AT charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'"
>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <001001c88dad$46209c20$6401a8c0@Karey>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Rhonda, 
>
>
>
> Of course, Nikki knows more about what Walker said personally, but in his
> writings he always maintained that chimps and other animals could
> communicate dyadically - but their sign language and other communication
> never rose above the "sign" level to symbol.  He seemed pretty adamant about
> that, even though it was not written in stone in the general field, as Nikki
> says.  Interestingly, Susanne Langer, his mentor in symbol (of sorts), felt
> otherwise - that higher primates were capable of rudimentary symbol, and
> gives examples in her "Philosophy in a New Key."  For Walker it seems to be
> a qualitative difference; for Langer, it was quantitative.
>
>
>
> Karey
>
>
>
>  _____  
>
> From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:21 AM
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
>
>
>
> Nikki--
>
> Can you elaborate a little on the debate you refer to? Was Walker absolute
> in his stance, or did he recognize that dyadic communication exists between
> the "lower orders"?  I'm wondering if it was triadic communication that was
> the sticking point for him, and therefore the true point of argument?
>
>
>
> --Rhonda 
>
> "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of
> great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea
> of who he is or what he is doing."
>  
>                                    Walker Percy
>
>
>
>
>  _____  
>
>
> From: Nikkibar AT aol.com
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 -0400
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
>
>
>
>
> Dear Marcus,
>
>
>
> You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running argument that i carried
> on with Walker for a great many years. He always asserted that animals of
> the "lower orders" were unable to communicate -- not only with us but with
> one another, while I held to the view that 1) he was probably wrong and or
> 2) that in any event we could never be certain but 3) that it was a measure
> of our hubris to deny the possibility. As times have gone forward since his
> death, the empirical jury is still out in my view, but I think my position
> grows stronger day by day.
>
>
>
> Nikki
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  _____  
>
>
> Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
> <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0
> 0030000000001>  the video on AOL Home.
>
>
>
>  _____  
>
> Test your Star IQ Play now!
> <http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR> 
>
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