Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

[David Alan Beck <dabeck AT iupui.edu>]

Karey/Jim,
I have to agree with Karey on this one. I didn't see any attack on
Southern Baptists or anyone for that matter. Jim's message surprised me
so I went back and read the thread again, and still didn't see it. I
think that Karey's explanation below is exactly how I interpreted her
remarks. I also think they are quite accurate. I remember a discussion I
had with a RC friend. She was saying that we should be thankful that we
live in a time when Christians aren't being persecuted (in the U.S.). I
replied that what perhaps shakes the faith more than overt persecution
(which seems to have the opposite effect of bolstering one's faith) is the
mere apathy that one meets when discussing or explaining one's beliefs. To
say I'm Orthodox, RC, or protestant is met with a collective shrug of the
shoulders, as if none alone is "right" but just a choice among any
particular belief system. This reaction has a way of producing doubt about
one's belief, since it is treated as so subjective, as if there is no
possibility of a universal truth. At least if a gun is pointed to your
head because of your faith, you know that it is powerful enough to be
seen as a threat. 
 In our moral/spiritual climate today, we have no common spiritual
heritage that is shared by the majority. Each "sect" is a minority, as are
Jim's Baptist students. But for the most part, these believers face no
real hostility, but just the yawn of indifference. And I do think that
this situation was of interest to Percy (read some of Lance's rants or the
"sermons" in Thanatos). 
 (Ah, the percylist lives again--in the words of Colin Clive: "It's alive!
It's alive!")

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Karey L. Perkins wrote:

> Jim -- I wasn't trying to put down Southern Baptists, or those who believe
> in JC, or those who don't, or those who think they're "fairy tales" (or even
> liberal literary theorists).   Sorry if it came out that way.  The point
> that I was trying to make is that NONE of these stances is a given any
> more -- the person sitting next to you could just as easily believe in
> Buddha, Mohammad, Christ, or be an atheist, or something else entirely.  The
> person on the other side of you believes something completely different.
> There are no universal spiritual truths that are agreed upon any more.  That
> doesn't mean that there might not actually be universal spiritual truths (I
> personally happen to believe there are, as I believe did Percy) just that
> the 20th century didn't make that easy to find...it obscured such things,
> and often, denied such things.  But people need this and as a result we have
> existential loneliness and alienation of our times.  That's the problem with
> the century -- but also the gift of the century.  If society doesn't give a
> spirituality to you, then you have to search for the truth that really is
> there.
> 
> KP
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Wesson
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated, Based on
> Previous Discussions and Readings
> 
> 
> well, it has more to do with the way you put down
> others like your'good ole southern baptist
> students,and people who belive in JC(no less. and
> people who believe in  fairy tales. it is just a
> rather mean spitited attack on people really doing you
> no harm just because they think differently than you.
> has nothing to di with literary theory,marx,atheists
> or stuff like that.
>   i think Percy thought it was ok to respect others
> thoughts.he even might have been
>  'the last gentleman'
> peace,
>   jim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net> wrote:
> > Well, if you do figure it out, let me know!   I had
> > a literary theory
> > professor once -- young, largely liberal leftist,
> > Marxist, atheist (as is
> > often found in the academy these days) -- who
> > refused to debate Percy with
> > me, saying, "I would be hostile to your point of
> > view" (since he knew
> > Percy's stance before we even began).  I was sorely
> > disappointed, as I
> > thought his thoughts would inform mine -- especially
> > since we began from
> > different premises.  Either I would discover flaws
> > in my arguments, or new
> > points to consider, or change it slightly or
> > entirely, or, in the end, find
> > it confirmed and strengthened -- or all of the above
> > in some way.  Anyway,
> > perhaps the important consideration here is:  what
> > did Percy think about it?
> > Didn't he think that the 20th century culture (on
> > the whole) lacked
> > spirituality?  Wasn't that one of his primary
> > messages?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jim Wesson
> > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts,
> > Largely Unrelated, Based on
> > Previous Discussions and Readings
> >
> >
> >
> > > defines us.  There are many
> > > sub-cultures that do so -- I live in Atlanta, and
> > a
> > > whole lot of my students
> > > are good ole South Georgia Baptists, firmly
> > viewing
> > > themselves with a
> > > meaning, and defining themselves and their place
> > and
> > > purpose in the world as
> > > spiritual creatures -- saved by Jesus Christ no
> > less
> > > -- but this is a
> > > sub-culture and they have just traveled only
> > 50-100
> > > miles from their
> > > hometown to sit side by side in a classroom (and
> > at
> > > work I suppose as well)
> > > with others -- the majority I'd say -- who think
> > > they're living a fairy
> > > tale.
> > >
> > >hi,
> >
> >  well, i am not religious but you may have this all
> > wrong and i can not even explain what i mean!
> >    peace,
> >    jim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Oops -- same message, but Plain Text format this
> > > time.  I keep forgetting.
> > > >
> > > > KP
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Karey L. Perkins
> > > > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:05 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts,
> > > Largely Unrelated, Based
> > > on
> > > > Previous Discussions and Readings
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Aristotle thought the teenagers of his day were
> > > all going to pot.  An
> > > essay
> > > > in Percy's Signposts says more (American) men
> > were
> > > killed in the Civil War
> > > > than WWI and WWII put together. On a physical
> > > level, the 20th century
> > > wasn't
> > > > any worse than other centuries... On a material
> > > level, our lives are
> > > > terrific (Percy would agree) and far better than
> > > they have been ever (at
> > > > least the Northern Hemisphere).   The 9/11
> > tragedy
> > > and the wars that are
> > > > following it are tragedies of course -- but no
> > > worse than those that came
> > > > before and actually far less I would say.
> > > >
> > > > However, on a spiritual level, we don't know why
> > > we're here, or who we
> > > > are -- THIS is what's different about our
> > century.
> > > >
> > > > On an ETHICAL level, however, I'd have to say
> > this
> > > century is no better or
> > > > worse than any others...  We can still learn to
> > be
> > > "ethical" in this
> > > > transient, anonymous, capitalist, postmodern
> > > society -- ethical implies a
> > > > statement about our behavior in the physical
> > > world, and the laws of nature
> > > > still apply.  I.E.:  If you're lazy and don't
> > > work, you won't produce and
> > > > hence you will be fired, become hungry, and
> > become
> > > motivated to work.  If
> > > > you're a freeloader, people will know it, resent
> > > you, abandon you, and
> > > > you'll soon lose people to freeload off of.  If
> > > you cheat and lie, you
> > > will
> > > > (eventually) be found out.  Enron and WorldCom.
> > > Being unethical just
> > > > doesn't work -- in the long run -- and the
> > > structure of the universe will
> > > > ensure that we learn our lessons and act
> > ethically
> > > to succeed, or not
> > > learn
> > > > our lessons and fail.  "What doesn't work will
> > > eventually fail."  There
> > > are
> > > > exceptions, of course, but generally our world
> > --
> > > THE world -- works that
> > > > way.
> > > >
> > > > However, ethics is different from spirituality
> > --
> > > though the two are
> > > related
> > > > more often than not.  Spirituality implies a
> > sense
> > > of meaning and purpose
> > > > behind our actions.  Spirituality implies
> > > something that is transcendent
> > > of
> > > > the physical world.  Spirituality implies, esp.
> > > for Percy, something
> > > > human -- different from the animals -- and
> > entails
> > > such concepts and
> > > > experiences of "joy" and "alienation" and a
> > "soul"
> > > and a "dark night" and
> > > > "pattern" and "purpose."
> > > >
> > > > In other words, I can act ethically for the
> > > physical rewards/benefits of
> > > > that and have no spiritual purpose behind it at
> > > all (though spirituality
> > > > usually entails ethical actions).  You referred
> > to
> > > the "Thanatos
> > > > Syndrome" -- in it you have the characters
> > > cavorting about engaging in all
> > > > sorts of meaningless sexual acts -- it's not
> > that
> > > that's unethical that is
> > > > the problem with this -- but that it shows the
> > > absence of spirituality --
> > > > there's no meaning or purpose behind what should
> > > be a spiritual act.  In
> > > TS,
> > > > the water is tampered with to make a happy
> > society
> > > on a physical plane,
> > > but
> > > > there's no purpose to the happiness, no
> > > transcendent meaning related to
> > > > that.  (In this way, to me, Thanatos Syndrome is
> > > very closely related to
> > > > Huxley's Brave New World -- in events and in
> > > theme.)
> > > >
> > > > Huston Smith (best known for his "World
> > Religions"
> > > work) has a great
> > > little
> > > > book, a pretty quick read, called "Beyond the
> > > Post-Modern Mind" (1989?
> > > > though that might not be the first edition).  In
> > > it he says the middle
> > > ages
> >
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
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David Beck

"Eternity is in the present. Eternity is in
the palm of the hand. Eternity is a seed of
fire, whose sudden roots break barriers that
keep my heart from being an abyss."                          
                      - Thomas Merton