Permaculture Database

[Bear Kaufmann <bear@ursine-design.com>]

On Apr 3, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:

> Bear Kaufmann wrote:
>
> > I've uploaded some links I had collected and placed on the now
> > defunct PIW/pcplantdb wiki:
> > http://pcdb.pbwiki.com/piwResources
>
> Where did that domain come from? Who owns it?
> I thought the pcplantdb wiki was on ibiblio at www.permaculture.info.
> What happened to that?

If you're referring to pbwiki.com, Paul C. set the wiki up on that  
host, what pbwiki's TOS imply I'm not sure. It's a good, perhaps  
temporary, place to organize our thoughts.

The wiki and permaculture.info was hosted by ibiblio. The  
permaculture.info domain currently points to Chad's site, so the wiki  
is not web accessible. I haven't tried to find my l/p and log in to  
the ibiblio account to see if the files still exist.

> > Oh, with that, I'd like to cast my vote in for moving the two
> > projects together. The goals are very similar and the other project
> > has been inactive for a while.
>
> I am completely opposed to that happening. If anyone in that  
> (Chad's) project
> wants to join this list and help in development efforts that should  
> be fine.
OK.
> They know this list and this new project exists; so far you alone  
> have shown interest.
OK.
> The very thought of certain folk(s) diddling things into a time and  
> money wasting boondoggle
> like they did before plus...
I'm not sure if I'd characterize it that way. Chad became involved in  
other (physical) projects and had less time to develop.
Stronger project management would have been useful.

> ...the crude attempt to usurp the pc list makes me cringe.

> As I said, if they want to find us, they know where we are. Without  
> any visible sign of
> interest on their part making available to them what we have done  
> so far plus prospects
> for the future, risking the project becoming mired in the mud and  
> inactive as before, is ludicrous.
What I'm saying, is that there was a period of valuable discussion  
about the project on the listserv. Some of the same issues were  
discussed there and could provide useful information. The goals of  
the 2 projects are very similar (including thinking beyond plants  
(which I believe is why we moved towards Permaculture Information  
Web), guild designing, etc). Since Chad has shown a willingness to  
move the project on to other interested parties, this project seems  
to be it.
What merging the two projects implies, would probably be not much  
more then what has currently happened. But having two projects  
working side by side to the same goal or not benefiting from what's  
come before, does seem wasteful.

> I wrote earlier:
>
> 1) Are we going to embark on a new project?
That is what's happening. With good input from a number of people.
> Or
> 2) Are we or is anyone, going to:
>     a) Integrate Chad's work into our new project?
>     b) Finish the work Chad started as he envisioned it?
>
> And as I have said a hundred times, our project needs to involve  
> the Permaculture community-at-large, especially those
> people in the various permaculture forums. People need to feel that  
> it is _their_ project and that their participation
> and input is desired and valued. This was rarely, if ever, done in  
> the previous project and is probably why it ground to
> a halt, unfinished.
Agreed. Though accouncements of the development work  going on were  
occasionally made to the PC lists.
I don't think the project reached a state were it was ready to draw  
on the full knowledge of a large number of users. Plus there was  
another list used to draw some information from potential users.

That may be a point to consider for this project: finding a way to  
maximize user input at an early stage of development.

> If this is an open source permaculture information system, free to  
> all, people will be interested in
> what happens to it. ibiblio is the obvious and most useful hosting  
> site for us and its free. Funding can be raised
> through solicitation of direct donations and through Paypal.
>
> Of course anyone can develop a commercial pc database but I expect  
> they'll be on their own and will find it difficult to
> find unpaid volunteers, unlike this project.
If you are implying pcplantdb was moving that way, discussions on the  
subject went about as far as on here: possibly working with  
nurseries, etc.

Cheers,
Bear