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  • From: Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
  • To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table
  • Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 08:58:03 -0500

Exciting project Steve!

I have a question and 2 comments that I will pass on.

The question relates to your comment about Cornelian Cherry. I also have an acidic soil (6.0) but did not adjust the pH when I planted my trees due to the published pH tolerance of these plants as low as 5.0. What am I missing? Do they thrive in alkaline soils and just tolerate acidic soils?

The comment relates to adding CaCo3 to land for long term pH management. Historically, this was done deliberately with oyster shells applied to agricultural fields in colonial America (one can still view shell fragments in those fields still in use) and inadvertently from discarded shells along the southeastern US coast in the form of calcareous middens.

I was warned that once the material is applied, it is hard to pull it back if you applied too much. How do calculate to how much to apply? Is the application dependent upon total rainfall? Does rain pH matter? Does rate of rainfall matter? Just thoughts.

The last comment is that my understanding is that chestnuts do best in acidic soils. I believe that I have killed a couple of trees by placing them in a lime rich area.

Betsy Hilborn

On 1/7/2017 12:08 AM, Steven Covacci wrote:
Thank you for the response, Mr. Lehman. I just discovered that the
seasonally high water table is said to be "24 to 36" under the soil
surface, as opposed to 18" to 30", which is quite a bit more promising.
The soil is described as stony, course, sandy, deep and well-drained, and
moderately retentive of moisture. This is good. It's described as 'poor
agriculture' soil-- I"m pretty sure this is for the fact that it's so
stony; but since I'm intending to grow perennial fruit trees, this doesn't
bother me. What concerns me a bit is that the upper inches are described
as acidic and the lower inches of the top soil as well as the subsoil is
described as having a reaction which is 'very acidic'. I hope that I won't
have to forgo thoughts of planting things like apricot (on Manchurian
rootstock) and Cornelian-cherry. I don't know if getting truckloads of
crushed (gravel size) limestone would help; that I could back the gravel
and even larger pieces into the ground around the roots of these
calcium-dependent crops. And I'd definitely compost trees around them to
neutralize pH; I've read the same. Very interesting tidbit re: pH and paw
paw/Ukraine.

It will be about 45 acres, but I figure dedicating 3 acres of the 45 to
calcium-dependent crops might be manageable.

Thank you very much,
Steve

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Jerry Lehman <jwlehmantree@gmail.com> wrote:

On 1/6/2017 1:51 PM, sc wrote:

Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out
next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series".
Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay
fragipan a couple of feet down.
A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during
is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times.
Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5).
My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P.
americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples.
However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and
apricot.
In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to
clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the
projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on
3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of
top soil/sand.
On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc.
I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a
seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface?
It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd
Would something like this work?

Hi Steve,

That 14 inches of clay hardpan a couple of feet down doesn't scare me and
I like the sound of that much better than the previous one you asked about.
The pH of 5 I don't believe is that detrimental and can be partially
overcome with agriculture lime, I would think. Also if you have a few trees
compost around them tends to neutralize pH, if it's acidic it raises the pH
and if it's high it lowers pH. Or at least so I've read and been told. But
when I was in Ukraine I saw them successfully growing pawpaws in the soil
with pH 9 by having about 6 inches of mulch about 4 foot around each tree.

If these 3 acres are near you and the price is right I believe you should
give a strong consideration.

Jerry

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