Where are you? I use groworganic.com for most things. Their
prices are good and they’re nearby enough for pickup or cheap shipping. There
have been some posts of a similar organic supplier over on the right coast.
Thought I’d bookmarked it, but can’t find it.
And the web’s slow right now, so I can’t get quotes, I’ll have
to leave that to you. Anyway, I can find small quantities in local nurseries, hardware
stores, even WalMart. I wonder how far up the supply chain one might be able
to go to get bulk?
~ Stephen
From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Richard Harrison
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:59 PM
To: North American Fruit Explorers
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
I guess what I really should have asked is: do you know of
an affordable source of bone meal? I used cottonseed meal---since it was
affordably priced-- this year and it worked great!
Richard
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Stephen Sadler <Docshiva@Docshiva.org>
wrote:
From: Stephen Sadler <Docshiva@Docshiva.org>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
To: "'North American Fruit Explorers'" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 5:47 PM
I
buy some fertilizer blends that contain bone meal. I’m not above
blending my own supplemented compost; but what I’m trying to do is generally
build up the very poor soil at our new house. I’m using compost and
broad-based organic fertilizers, then customizing areas for plants with
things like cottonseed meal and peat.
~
Stephen
From:
nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Harrison
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:35 PM
To: North American Fruit Explorers
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
Do you buy bone meal or use something else?
Richard Harrison, NW FL
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Stephen Sadler <Docshiva@Docshiva.org>
wrote:
From: Stephen Sadler <Docshiva@Docshiva.org>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
To: "'North American Fruit Explorers'"
<nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:30 PM
I agree about Donna’s letter!!
Potatoes really do love that cottonseed meal. I can
get organic, but it’s very hard to find elsewhere. Since you’re not
certified, why not use it? I’m comfortable with it vs. conventional
chemicals. I’m not certified either, but I’ve heard it mentioned that
I might be certifiable…
~ Stephen
From:
nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Harrison
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:38 AM
To: North American Fruit Explorers
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
Thank you for this amazing article ! I
thoroughly enjoyed it! I chuckled through most of it---mainly because it
is SO true. You should be a journalist somewhere--telling it like it is!
I think the first chuckle was when you
said that Sevin is considered one of the 4 major food groups. I rolled on
that one! There's SO much truth to that. I live in NW FL and understand
you--loud and clear.
As for the gulf between organic
enthusiasts and chemical ones, there's an old saying that MAY have some
application here--when you think about it long enough. The saying is
"if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything".
Many people can be VERY opinionated. I know, I'm one of them!
I have lived on the chemical side for most
of my life--of 57 years. Last year I tried some cotttonseed meal on my
sugarcane and decide to increase the rate to double. THIS YEAR it was
affordable to buy versus chemical. Then I decided to try some cottonseed
meal on my Irish potatoes--knowing that potatoes like a lot of
Phosphorus, rather than Nitrogen(which the cottonseed meal is high in).
Well we got some drenching rains! The potatoes with chemical
fertilizer has been dead and harvested for 2 1/2 weeks and it is just
getting to be harvest time on the potatoes with cottonseed meal. The
plants stayed green over 2 1/2 weeks longer! The potatoes have
better color(in the ground) too, than the chemically fertilized ones.
So now, I'm gung-ho to try more cottonseed
meal. I tell an organic friend about mu results and advise her on where
she can purchase cottonseed meal and guess what response I get?
"Cottonseed meal ISN'T ORGANIC!" I thought to
myself, "that's crazy!" But she explains, "the cottonseed
is probably BIOENGINEERED--( a no-no) and the cotton was probably sprayed
with Roundup and pesticides! The meal is CONTAMINATED.
Probably needless to say, I will NEVER be
an organic gardener. It's next to impossible to be an organic
gardener---or certified organic these days, certainly not on a
commercial scale. I had thought that I might try growing organic
vegetables this Fall and sell them at the Farmers Market, but no, I can't
even call them organic without breaking a law now. They have to meet
arbitrary legal standards now. I have to call them
"naturally-grown" or something.
So, I'm no longer hyped up about
organic gardening---again. IPM sounds logical to me. We have a county
agent that this is a part of his job title "IPM Specialist".
But I guess we have "different
strokes for different folks" as Sly said in his song.
Personally, I look at food like the
scripture says, " every creature(referring to meat here---or food)
of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with
thanksgiving. For it is sanctified by the word of God and
prayer." I try to pray over everything that I eat. I don't
know(for sure) what's in the food that I eat(and literally noone does).
But I know faith always works.
Some folks have faith in organic,
some in chemical. Let's not fight over which is right or wrong.
Donna, keep up the good
writings. You brightened my day!
Richard Harrison, NW FL
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Kieran &/or Donna <holycow@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
From: Kieran &/or Donna <holycow@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
To: "North American Fruit Explorers"
<nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 11:13 AM
Someone,
I think it was Fluffy or maybe Alan who said organic people
are "unscientific". That's not entirely
true. Most of us are simply naive idealists who really believe that
God or Nature is benign and nice. We have read that if we just
improve our soil enough, that the bugs and disease will go
away. That generally seems to hold true for truck crops.
I haven't seen a bean beetle in years. Fruit trees seem much harder
to deal with. The borer for every species
thing doesn't help. The curculio seem to have developed the
perfect system, simply ruin all the fruit for any other creature but
let a few fruits hang on long enough to make a few seeds for the
trees to reproduce. Codling moths aren't nearly as
efficient. Someone asked me at work about what
was eating the leaves on various species of veggies in her
first ever garden. Two of us were interrogating her, as she
was obviously describing rabbit or deer damage. the same bug does
not attack all those species, and each one does it's own very specific
thing. The older men in the family had simply gone out and
dusted Sevin to deal with all those other pests. Here our worlds
divide. I adore bugs, except for the ones I hate with a
passion. I could never spray my garden with an insecticide, it
would kill too many of my miniature wildlife. ( I don't have to
go on safari to Africa or even use binoculars to observe amazing
creatures and great drama. Try watching one of those special spider
wasps in action. You know, the blackish ones with the orange curly
antennae. Know what they use those antennae for? They
feel the spider very carefully with them to find the right spot to
sting. It's rather obscene to watch, esp as I am so fond of
wolf spiders. ) I know a great deal about all kinds of bugs,
including those that have no economic impact on me. Tennessee
oldtimers don't know these things, they kill everything with Sevin.
That is scientific? I get a big kick out of explaining to
oldtimers about why the blister beetles they hate so much are only a
mixed curse, because their young feed on grasshopper eggs.
Once we got banties running loose eating grasshoppers, the blister
beetles became rare.
Sevin is one of the 4 food groups in Tennessee. Never mind that it
is a neurotoxin that mammals can break down in their livers because they
have an enzyme that insects don't have. Never mind that this enzyme
can be used up by repeated exposure or that certain medications can use
it up. Never mind the reports in Organic Gardening, that magazine
for superstitious organic gardeners about how Sevin can last 40 days in
the garden in certain conditions. Never mind the final conclusion
in the book A PLAGUE OF FROGS that it was the breakdown product of a
pesticide that interfered with the thyroid function in the developing
frogs and caused the limb deformities. The researchers working with
the pesticide itself did not get these results, giving the impression
that it would not affect frogs. Yes, there is also some kind of
amphibian infection running around that can do this, but the Canadian
researcher said flatly that in his years of sampling, that only farm
ponds with lots of pesticides produced deformities. Is it truly
scientific to assume that chemicals don't break down into intermediate
products out in Nature? Some of us organic nuts are now
bitter and twisted, having realised that the world consists mostly of
creatures saying gimme. We watch longingly the simple
lives of chemical users, but are still only too
aware that the miracle of modern chemistry is
biting America's backside in the rates of cancer
and other health problems.
This is not intended as an attack on anyone on this group, I am merely
addressing the great divide in Nafex. Never mind politics, we don't
go to Nafex meetings and then immediately try to figure out whether we
are talking to a Dem or Rep, we want to know if we are talking with
someone who grows resistant stuff or who grows the best of everything and
sprays. Both groups start out naive, but one trusts the chemical
companies and sprays, the other puts their faith in Nature and doesn't
spray. Both get rewards, but often the organic bunch have to do a
whole lot more learning first. Personally, I would love to see the
concept of IPM agriculture blossom. I would love to be able to buy
IPM produce in my local grocery. But somehow the concept has never
gotten major attention among consumers and publications to
consumers. IPM is definitely the most scientific form of
agriculture in my opinion. It is based on the intersection of 3
realities, economic reality, and the knowlege of biology and chemistry.
I suppose this is the foundation for an article I have long wanted to
write for Pomona but never could quite figure out how to approach.
The divide in Nafex between the organic and the chemical people is quite
deep. People have their minds as made up already as they did in the
last election. I soon discovered last year that I could only
discuss politics with like minded people, that there were no discussions
between sides, only arguments. I think the divide is addressed by
the Meyers-Briggs, Kiersey-Bates personality tests. The division is
between the 25% of the population who see the forest, and the 75% who see
the trees. Between the big picture and the details.
The big picture people think the detail people are idiots because they
can't grasp the implications of what they do. The detail people
think the big picture people are idiots because they are vague. For
the extremes of either type, there is sudden glazing over of the eyes
when forced to converse with someone of the other brain type. I
have watched it happen, I have experienced it myself. My
husband once endured an excruciating conversation between a
brother and BIL of mine, 15 full minutes regarding a scratch on a car and
what to do about it. Our attitude is, the car is transportation, a
scratch means nothing to that purpose. To detail people, a scratch
is a very real thing.
For the purposes of this discussion, ask yourself which type you are, and
would you please report in which type you are and whether you think
organic gardening is stupid and chemicals are fine. Remember
there are people in the middle, more versatile people than the ones at
the ends of the spectrum. If you are in the middle, what is your
opinion re chemicals, in 25 words or less? Thank you.
Any input regarding an article for Pomona on this subject would be very
much appreciated. A group effort will produce a better balanced
article. Some details, some theory, something for
everyone. Donna
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