I agree about Donna’s letter!!
Potatoes really do love that cottonseed meal. I can get
organic, but it’s very hard to find elsewhere. Since you’re not certified, why
not use it? I’m comfortable with it vs. conventional chemicals. I’m not
certified either, but I’ve heard it mentioned that I might be certifiable…
~ Stephen
From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Richard Harrison
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:38 AM
To: North American Fruit Explorers
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
Thank you for this amazing
article ! I thoroughly enjoyed it! I chuckled through most of it---mainly
because it is SO true. You should be a journalist somewhere--telling it like
it is!
I think the first chuckle was
when you said that Sevin is considered one of the 4 major food groups. I
rolled on that one! There's SO much truth to that. I live in NW FL and
understand you--loud and clear.
As for the gulf between organic
enthusiasts and chemical ones, there's an old saying that MAY have some
application here--when you think about it long enough. The saying is "if
you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything". Many people
can be VERY opinionated. I know, I'm one of them!
I have lived on the chemical side
for most of my life--of 57 years. Last year I tried some cotttonseed meal on
my sugarcane and decide to increase the rate to double. THIS YEAR it was
affordable to buy versus chemical. Then I decided to try some cottonseed meal
on my Irish potatoes--knowing that potatoes like a lot of Phosphorus, rather
than Nitrogen(which the cottonseed meal is high in). Well we got some
drenching rains! The potatoes with chemical fertilizer has been dead
and harvested for 2 1/2 weeks and it is just getting to be harvest time on
the potatoes with cottonseed meal. The plants stayed green over 2 1/2 weeks
longer! The potatoes have better color(in the ground) too, than the
chemically fertilized ones.
So now, I'm gung-ho to try more
cottonseed meal. I tell an organic friend about mu results and advise her on
where she can purchase cottonseed meal and guess what response I get?
"Cottonseed meal ISN'T ORGANIC!" I thought to
myself, "that's crazy!" But she explains, "the cottonseed is
probably BIOENGINEERED--( a no-no) and the cotton was probably sprayed with
Roundup and pesticides! The meal is CONTAMINATED.
Probably needless to say, I will
NEVER be an organic gardener. It's next to impossible to be an organic
gardener---or certified organic these days, certainly not on a
commercial scale. I had thought that I might try growing organic vegetables
this Fall and sell them at the Farmers Market, but no, I can't even call them
organic without breaking a law now. They have to meet arbitrary legal
standards now. I have to call them "naturally-grown" or something.
So, I'm no longer hyped up
about organic gardening---again. IPM sounds logical to me. We have a county
agent that this is a part of his job title "IPM Specialist".
But I guess we have
"different strokes for different folks" as Sly said in his song.
Personally, I look at food
like the scripture says, " every creature(referring to meat here---or
food) of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with
thanksgiving. For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
I try to pray over everything that I eat. I don't know(for sure) what's in
the food that I eat(and literally noone does). But I know faith always works.
Some folks have faith in
organic, some in chemical. Let's not fight over which is right or wrong.
Donna, keep up the
good writings. You brightened my day!
Richard Harrison, NW FL
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Kieran &/or Donna <holycow@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
From: Kieran &/or Donna <holycow@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
To: "North American Fruit Explorers"
<nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 11:13 AM
Someone,
I think it was Fluffy or maybe Alan who said organic people
are "unscientific". That's not entirely
true. Most of us are simply naive idealists who really believe that God
or Nature is benign and nice. We have read that if we just improve
our soil enough, that the bugs and disease will go away.
That generally seems to hold true for truck crops. I haven't seen
a bean beetle in years. Fruit trees seem much harder to deal
with. The borer for every species thing doesn't
help. The curculio seem to have developed the perfect system, simply
ruin all the fruit for any other creature but let a few fruits hang on
long enough to make a few seeds for the trees to reproduce. Codling
moths aren't nearly as efficient. Someone asked me at work
about what was eating the leaves on various species of veggies
in her first ever garden. Two of us were interrogating her, as she
was obviously describing rabbit or deer damage. the same bug does not
attack all those species, and each one does it's own very specific
thing. The older men in the family had simply gone out and dusted
Sevin to deal with all those other pests. Here our worlds divide.
I adore bugs, except for the ones I hate with a passion. I could never
spray my garden with an insecticide, it would kill too many of my miniature
wildlife. ( I don't have to go on safari to Africa or even use
binoculars to observe amazing creatures and great drama. Try
watching one of those special spider wasps in action. You know, the
blackish ones with the orange curly antennae. Know what they use those
antennae for? They feel the spider very carefully with them to
find the right spot to sting. It's rather obscene to watch, esp as
I am so fond of wolf spiders. ) I know a great deal about all
kinds of bugs, including those that have no economic impact on me.
Tennessee oldtimers don't know these things, they kill everything with
Sevin. That is scientific? I get a big kick out of
explaining to oldtimers about why the blister beetles they hate so much are
only a mixed curse, because their young feed on grasshopper eggs.
Once we got banties running loose eating grasshoppers, the blister beetles
became rare.
Sevin is one of the 4 food groups in Tennessee. Never mind that it is a
neurotoxin that mammals can break down in their livers because they have an
enzyme that insects don't have. Never mind that this enzyme can be used
up by repeated exposure or that certain medications can use it up.
Never mind the reports in Organic Gardening, that magazine for superstitious
organic gardeners about how Sevin can last 40 days in the garden in certain
conditions. Never mind the final conclusion in the book A PLAGUE OF
FROGS that it was the breakdown product of a pesticide that interfered
with the thyroid function in the developing frogs and caused the limb
deformities. The researchers working with the pesticide itself did not
get these results, giving the impression that it would not affect
frogs. Yes, there is also some kind of amphibian infection running
around that can do this, but the Canadian researcher said flatly that in his
years of sampling, that only farm ponds with lots of pesticides produced
deformities. Is it truly scientific to assume that chemicals don't
break down into intermediate products out in Nature? Some of
us organic nuts are now bitter and twisted, having realised that the world consists
mostly of creatures saying gimme. We watch longingly the
simple lives of chemical users, but are still only too
aware that the miracle of modern chemistry is
biting America's backside in the rates of cancer and other health
problems.
This is not intended as an attack on anyone on this group, I am merely
addressing the great divide in Nafex. Never mind politics, we don't go
to Nafex meetings and then immediately try to figure out whether we are
talking to a Dem or Rep, we want to know if we are talking with someone who
grows resistant stuff or who grows the best of everything and sprays.
Both groups start out naive, but one trusts the chemical companies and
sprays, the other puts their faith in Nature and doesn't spray. Both
get rewards, but often the organic bunch have to do a whole lot more learning
first. Personally, I would love to see the concept of IPM agriculture
blossom. I would love to be able to buy IPM produce in my local
grocery. But somehow the concept has never gotten major attention among
consumers and publications to consumers. IPM is definitely the most
scientific form of agriculture in my opinion. It is based on the
intersection of 3 realities, economic reality, and the knowlege of biology
and chemistry.
I suppose this is the foundation for an article I have long wanted to write
for Pomona but never could quite figure out how to approach. The divide
in Nafex between the organic and the chemical people is quite deep.
People have their minds as made up already as they did in the last election.
I soon discovered last year that I could only discuss politics with like
minded people, that there were no discussions between sides, only
arguments. I think the divide is addressed by the Meyers-Briggs,
Kiersey-Bates personality tests. The division is between the 25% of the
population who see the forest, and the 75% who see the trees. Between
the big picture and the details. The big picture people think
the detail people are idiots because they can't grasp the implications of
what they do. The detail people think the big picture people are idiots
because they are vague. For the extremes of either type, there is
sudden glazing over of the eyes when forced to converse with someone of the
other brain type. I have watched it happen, I have experienced it
myself. My husband once endured an excruciating conversation
between a brother and BIL of mine, 15 full minutes regarding a scratch on a
car and what to do about it. Our attitude is, the car is
transportation, a scratch means nothing to that purpose. To detail
people, a scratch is a very real thing.
For the purposes of this discussion, ask yourself which type you are, and
would you please report in which type you are and whether you think organic
gardening is stupid and chemicals are fine. Remember there are
people in the middle, more versatile people than the ones at the ends of the
spectrum. If you are in the middle, what is your opinion re chemicals,
in 25 words or less? Thank you. Any input regarding an
article for Pomona on this subject would be very much appreciated. A
group effort will produce a better balanced article. Some details, some
theory, something for everyone. Donna
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