North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

["del stubbs" <pinewoodel@hotmail.com>]

Don thanks so much for your extensive blackbberry note. You and my minor 
success with chester have convinced me to give both a try. I've got the 
severtson literature. Have you seen their video? is it worth the $?   Mn. 
Del

(If it's ever needed, we do have a special jail for illegitimate offspring, 
complete with winter torture!)

>From: Don Yellman <dyellman@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: nafex@yahoogroups.com
>To: nafex@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [nafex] Doyle vs. Triple Crown
>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:48:58 -0400
>
>  1.     A few weeks ago, I said I would write up a comparison between
>the Doyle and Triple Crown thornless trailing blackberries.  I planted
>both in the spring of 2000; four Doyle plants and ten Triple Crowns,
>and, as we near the end of their second season, I am now in a position
>to carry out that threat.
>     The berries are along a fence, in soil that has been improved with
>stable manure over a span of more than ten years.  Part of the area was
>previously devoted to Shawnee thorny blackberries, so I had to pull up
>maverick Shawnees which kept appearing the first season.  They were easy
>to spot because of the thorns.
>     Both Doyle and Triple Crown require a fairly elaborate support
>system for maximum production, and I built structures for them using 8
>ft. landscape timbers at the ends, supported by treated 2x4's on top
>screwed together with deck screws into a "T" form, and four strands of
>No. 9 galvanized wire stretched tight between the end posts.  The
>longest treated 2x4's I could find at Home Depot were 16 ft., which is
>about the maximum you would want to use for a single span.  After I
>buried the ends of the landscape timbers, the fence is about 6 1/2 feet
>high; I now wish I had used 10 ft. posts and made it 8 feet high, since
>the more productive vines you can tie up, the better the berry
>production.  And higher is better for picking too.  Don't put your
>structure too close to a fence.  You want to be able to get at both
>sides of the plants to pick, prune, and train them.
>     Obviously, my experience here in N. Virginia would not necessarily
>transfer to other climate zones, but it should be fairly typical for
>much of the eastern region, the lower midwest, and the south-central
>states.  I can't address the issue of hardiness, since it doesn't get
>that cold here.  Cold for us is 10 degrees F. above zero, and many
>winters we don't even reach that.
>
>2.  So here are some preliminary observations, based on the first
>fruiting season:
>Flavor:  Triple Crown wins.  It is considerably sweeter than Doyle, and
>is delightful to eat right off the vines.  When eaten fresh, it has a
>better, more "blackberry" flavor than Doyle.  The Doyle is more acidic,
>slightly sourish, more like some of the wild blackberries.  But Doyle is
>great for jelly, wine, cobblers and pies, or any use where some sugar is
>added to cut the acidity.
>Size:   Triple Crown is slightly larger, in the first flush of berries,
>but not by a whole lot.  Some of the Triple Crowns were so big they
>looked like little asteroids.  They were larger than the two thorny
>varieties I have grown, (Shawnee and Darrow), and, in the initial flush
>of berries, so were the Doyles.
>Productivity:   Doyle wins hands down.  It is at least 3-4 times as
>productive as Triple Crown; it has more and larger berry clusters, and
>continues producing about ten days after Triple Crown has stopped.  If
>you want sheer volume of berries, for winemaking or a lot of jelly,
>Doyle is probably the one for you.  With ideal soil and site conditions,
>you can get 10-12 gallons of Doyles from two plants in the first
>fruiting season.
>Season:  We started picking Triple Crowns on July 10, and the Doyles on
>July 12.  The Triple Crowns were finished on August 10, for a season of
>exactly one month.  However, I am still picking Doyles, although the
>berries are now smaller and somewhat seedier, so it looks as if the
>Doyle picking season will be about 10 days longer than Triple Crown.
>That certainly adds to the total production of the Doyle, although the
>pickings have now declined to less than one gallon.
>Vigor:  Initially, I thought the Doyles would be considerably less
>vigorous than the Triple Crowns, based on growth during the first few
>months after planting.  But the Severtson Farms people apparently
>propagate by cuttings (they call it tissue culture), and ship small,
>fully-leafed out plants in elaborate containers.  I think it just takes
>a little longer for the Doyle plants to catch up, but now they appear to
>be nearly as vigorous as Triple Crown.  Incidentally, some of the Triple
>Crown canes that have formed this summer for next year's production are
>fully 1 inch across at the base.  Like little trees.  If the size of the
>canes is any indicator, production from both of these berries should
>increase significantly next season.  The way these things grow reminds
>me a little of Jack's beanstalk.
>Soil Requirements:  Both of these berries require a really rich soil
>environment, and can benefit from foliar feeding during the growing
>season.  I sprayed them once with my hose-end Miracle Grow feeder, but
>the real secret is compost in large quantities.  The Severtson Farms
>people recommend the application of finished compost, since heat from
>composting will damage the canes, but I will put on fresh stable manure
>to a depth of 10 inches or so after the first freeze.  At this
>application rate, the manure will not compost, but will break down
>gradually on the surface over the winter, and be ready to go next
>spring.  That has worked for me before with a lot of other things.  I
>never really till the manure into the soil.  Just keep putting on more,
>and let the earthworms till it.  The Severtson Farms people strongly
>recommend the use of plastic stretchy tape to tie up the canes.
>Initially, I used 3/4 inch tape, and found it somewhat awkward to tie,
>so I started using the plastic covered wire twisties.  Now I have some
>1/2 stretchy tape, which is easier to use, and I am using it for the
>main canes, but will probably continue to use the wire twisties for the
>laterals, which don't require so much support.  I think in the area of
>Texas where the Doyle comes from they experience a fairly high level of
>wind that we don't have here, and the wire twisties are more likely to
>cut into the canes.
>
>3.  For Vic:  I think it was you who asked whether blackberries are also
>called "dewberries".  I have heard the term dewberry, but don't really
>know what it is.  Perhaps it's just a regional name for wild
>blackberries.  When I said that Doyle and Triple Crown were "new"
>berries, I meant only new varieties, since the thornless trailing
>blackberry has been around for quite a while.  I am familiar with Black
>Satin and Chester, and am sure there are others.  I never thought the
>thornless types could compete with thorny berries for quality and
>productivity, but I was wrong.  Given the right conditions, they are
>even better, and they don't tear up your forearms or stick you right
>through leather gloves.
>
>4.  For MN Del:  I stand in admiration of you guys who grow fruit where
>winter temps of 30 degrees F below zero are routine.  I wish I could
>tell you whether Doyle and Triple Crown might surivive where you live,
>but I can't test for that.  I know you are growing Chester, and Doyle
>might be just as hardy.  Obviously, you won't build a 6-7 foot structure
>for your berries, since you need the snow cover to protect the canes,
>but they might be trainable on wires at 18-24 inches, with some plastic
>sheeting underneath to keep the berries clean.  You're not going to get
>the production you would from a taller fence, but you still might do
>pretty well with Doyle, if the canes will make it over the winter.  You
>would laugh at what we call snow cover around here.  Maybe 3-5 inches
>that is gone in 36 hours, but it is always enough to bring traffic in
>the Washington, D.C. area to a grinding halt.  You probably wouldn't
>even notice it there in MN.
>
>5.  Cultivation Note:  Both of these varieties will tip-root pretty
>readily, so if you have the time don't buy a whole lot of plants.  Make
>your own.  Triple Crown is a USDA release, so I don't think there is a
>patent, but the patent on Doyle is held by the Severtson Farms people.
>When I see a Doyle cane start to illegally tip-root, I place it under
>arrest immediately.  Haven't decided what the punishment will be yet.
>
>6.  Jelly Note: Made some jelly with 3 gallons of the first Doyles.  3
>gallons dry measure made:
>      -  19 cups juice, to which we added
>      -   10 cups sugar mixed with 10 tsp. Pomona's pectin, and
>      -    10 tsp. calcium solution.
>The result was exactly 12 pints of really extraordinary blackberry
>jelly.
>
>7.  BTW: I think it was Sam Franc out in OR who put me on to the Doyle
>berry in the first place; before that I had never heard of it.  I want
>to thank him for that.  Believe it was also Sam who first mentioned the
>Baba raspberry, which has also been a great success here.  Saw mention
>of Triple Crown for the first time here too; don't remember who brought
>it up.  I know that F. Bunny is growing it in IL.  The msg board has its
>benefits.
>
>
>Rgds, Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA


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