Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

[internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org (Steve Steele)]

Jeez, with such a quick leap to fear and paranoia one can't help
but to wonder if there is any room for thoughtful consideration.

I think it would serve the America that we all strive for, to give
compassion a little more room to breath. Let us not assume that an
acknowledgment of one's pain and grieving is synonymous with compassion.

This is a little off topic but I feel moved to ay it anyway.
Corporate America, government, technology and which ever demon
you would like to rail against today are only as powerful as we the
people allow them to be. I believe that embracing a sinister mind set
only serves to disempower yourself and others.

If there is a conspiracy, it is perpetuated by we the people. It is
one of greed, comfort and slothfulness. You and I are far to
distracted with maintaining the facade of fiscal and physical
security to devote any significant time to stay aware and manage
our control over the big three demons.

Your comments made me sit up and take note on my own contribution
to the social conscious of fear, paranoia and blame the other guy.

Thanks for the wake up.
Steve S.


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Today's Topics:

   1. [Insensitive Response to:] A sad day for NASA, US and the World (David
R. Matusiak)
   2. Re: where your job is headed ... (David R. Matusiak)
   3. Re: where your job is headed ... (Jeff Bacon)
   4. Re: where your job is headed ... (Shea Tisdale)
   5. Re: where your job is headed ... (pawelka)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 13:52:23 -0500
From: "David R. Matusiak" <dave AT matusiak.org>
To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [internetworkers] [Insensitive Response to:] A sad day for NASA, US
and the World
Reply-To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org

** don't read any further if you cannot handle gruesome commentary **

please forgive my crass reaction to this new tragedy (which i waited
hours to think about posting), but is this not simply the latest in a
string of horrific events designed to distract the American public from
what greater evil is being fostered in Washington D.C.?

i hate to turn the suffering of victims/families/whatnot into a
political gambit, but i am just too suspicious of our "leadership"
these days.

the reason i decided to send this message ties in closely with what
Salon did post 9/11.  they allowed anyone to send in (what were
considered to be) "Taboo reactions" to that tragedy.  i don't think
they were released until a year or so afterwards, so there was some
time to cool down.  however, as i read thru these peoples comments, i
was at times repulsed by what i read and at other times completely in
agreement with the sentiment of the words of another.

here is my taboo response at 10:08 a.m. (after receiving David's
message):

"Were the crew members Democrats?"

which has grown into "Did any of the crew have Democratic leanings
and/or show promise of being a Democratic leader in the future?"

this is not that far-fetched, considering the spotlight that John Glenn
(and others, like Neil Armstrong) have garnered in the past.

Please remember the late Senator Paul Wellstone while attempting to
keep all this in perspective.  <
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14399 >

notice how the white house and DoD are adamantly rushing to assure the
public that "this was DEFINITELY NOT an act of terrorism."  is that
them simply not wanting to lose credit for their violent actions to
some lesser terrorist group like Hamas or El Queso?

My heart goes out to those suffering and mourning, but i'm afraid i
have lost my personal capacity to mourn any more.  now i just want
answers.  in a fashion very similar to a CPU, i only want validated
incoming data.  there is no time to get hung up on emotional processes.
  there is no time to suffer the distractions of our Televised World.

they have reached such a level of control and sophistication that "The
Truth" will soon be so deeply buried that even archeologists a thousand
years from now will NOT be able to discover the perpetrators of such
atrocities.

please do not waste your time attempting to paint me as some whacko
conspiracy theorist.  if that were the case, i'd be trying to show you
that the crew of the Columbia included the "First Israeli in Space" and
that the wreckage fell predominantly in the area of Palestine, TX.

EOF
--

On Saturday, February 1, 2003, at 09:51  AM, David Minton wrote:

> It was just announced on NPR that the Space Shuttle Columbia broke up
> over
> Texas a little after 9am this morning. The shuttle and crew are
> understood
> to be lost.
>
> No web stories yet, though I am sure it will hit the major news sites
> shortly.
>
> David


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:44:03 -0500
Subject: Re: [internetworkers] where your job is headed ...
From: "David R. Matusiak" <dave AT matusiak.org>
To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org
Reply-To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org

more alignment than discord lies herewithin:

On Friday, January 31, 2003, at 08:45  AM, Roger Austin wrote:

> David R. Matusiak wrote:
>> now we're all a bunch of ungrateful whiners 'cause we are watching
>> our potentials for making a decent living go to countries/societies
>> that most likely don't give a damn about the United States (besides
>> sucking money out of us, that is).
>
>  I didn't say you were "ungrateful".
/implied
> I don't see a point in whining about something out of your control, or
> perhaps, not even true. Is the apparent lack of jobs in your area due
> to outsourcing to other countries? I don't think so. You (not you DRM,
> but the general you) got to deal with reality of the situation.
the *lack* of jobs is from the burst of the tech bubble and a
perpetually dismal economy in the USA.  what i am "whining" about is
the soon-to-come major absence of *new* jobs being created within the
USA -- in ANY sector.  as far as stimulating growth and rebuilding the
economy, many execs will wind up with great wealth as a result of these
decisions and certain foreign countries will experience great financial
gains, but the average american is going to be jobless, hopeless, and
prone to investigate illegal means of making money (or acquiring food,
for that matter).  i will let your imagination wander as to which
illegal trades people will wind up choosing.

as to the "reality of the situation," i have a limited grasp of reality
and can only report that which i see in person and/or read on google
news.  this version of reality includes major layoffs and bankruptcies
over the past three years.  i've also heard of a few accounting
scandals that left many penniless and others rich as dick cheney.  i
hear of cisco and nortel layoffs every 36 hours by special pager
service (and they are two of our biggest employers).  i have seen the
hiring freeze at the state level first hand.  i also understand that
state employees have not received any pay increases in the last two
years while taxes of all kinds continue to increase and multiply.  it
was especially fun to realize that state employees will again not
receive any type of pay increase THIS YEAR, as we were all kindly
informed of via form letter delivered right before christmas.  my
reality includes a vision where 1/3 to 1/2 of my friends are jobless,
have been for 6 to 36 months.  and these are people who want to work
*and* are talented at what they do.  now, i know this is a skewed view
of reality, but its currently the best that i've got.
>
>> we'll i guess if one had lived the majority of their life already and
>> were watching income potentials dwindle, then this would be a popular
>> party line.
>
>  Actuarially speaking, my life is about 66% over; however, I got a few
> prime years remaining and hope to work in the IT world for a while
> longer. Is my career in jeopardy due to outsourcing to foreign
> countries? Probably not anywhere near those of lower skilled workers
> from Western North Carolina in the textiles, furniture, and other
> manufacturing industries. In comparison, I have a lot better chance of
> getting another job than an upholsterer from Hickory or a weaving
> mechanic from Morganton. However, some of that luck is due to
> constantly taking classes and being involved. You are doing that in
> the OrangeRoom thing which I admire greatly.
i appreciate the compliment, but we are but a mere few interested geeks
that could soon meet with unfortunate ends via aeroplane or "boating
accident" because of our interests in Open Source Software.  these are
dangerous times we are living in and each day it becomes increasingly
obvious that those in most danger are educated, outspoken, and in
opposition to the status quo.
>
>> but for the few of us that work our asses off and /still/ are waiting
>> for a decent wage, this economic news isn't so comforting.  oh, great
>> - i can go back to business school and accumulate /more/ student
>> loans!!  (still haven't paid off the previous ones).  then *I* can be
>> an impotent middle-manager, too!!
>
>  Listen dammit, that impotent thing was just a rumor. Just ask...er,
> never mind.
>  I spent the last few decades working my ass off too. Sometimes it was
> noticed and sometimes I was a grunt in the backroom. All that is
> irrelevant today when the business looks for younger talent and looks
> at older employees as liabilities. That is of more interest to me than
> whether Rajiv is taking my job away to Bombay.
and this is where our perspectives dovetail nicely to create a
semblance of agreement.  there is more and more proof that age
discrimination is hurting our larger population of older workers.  you
are very astute to see this as a threat to your earning potentials in
the years to come.  while i may not be whining about this today, i
certainly will in the future.  and my concerns are only multiplied when
i see public policy and corporate hucksterism work together to exclude
the American worker in the future - regardless of talent,
qualification, or circumstance.
>
>> p.s. i really like giving our money away to foreign countries while
>> US citizens continue to struggle with poverty, malnutrition and
>> illiteracy.
>
>  It ain't your money. Poverty, malnutrition, and illiteracy were
> invented in the 3rd world. Our poor would be middle class in > Bangalore.
this i don't understand.  while there are bad situations the world
over, if more than a third of my income goes to taxes and social
programs, well, then it *still* is my money.  and i get absolutely NO
SAY in how that money is spent or allocated.  i don't know if others
have safeguarded measures to keep this money in their pockets -or-
failing that, have direct control over how it is spent, but i'd bet
that information would make a NYTimes bestseller list.

--
"Take my word I'm a madman don't you know."  - Bernie Taupin, 1970
--


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:38:41 -0500
From: Jeff Bacon <bacon AT twinight.org>
To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [internetworkers] where your job is headed ...
Reply-To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org

On Fri, Jan 31, 2003 at 10:08:20PM -0500, Bill Geschwind wrote:
> Offensive strategy? Imagine how much money the taxpayer could save if we
> could outsource 'The Army of One' to a country in the region of the
> conflict. No need to deploy our local boys halfway around the globe. The
> savings in transportation costs alone would be staggering!

That's a good idea, but that would be getting ahead of ourselves;
we are still a young empire and still hold some naive notions
about rights and freedoms and stuff like that. Employing
mercenaries wholesale to outsource the death and bloodshed
is a more advanced topic in empire-building. Give it a bit.

-bacon

--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Shea Tisdale" <shea AT sheatisdale.com>
To: <internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [internetworkers] where your job is headed ...
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:44:17 -0500
Reply-To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Geschwind" <geschwin AT email.unc.edu>
To: <internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:08 PM
Subject: RE: [internetworkers] where your job is headed ...


Offensive strategy? Imagine how much money the taxpayer could save if we
could outsource 'The Army of One' to a country in the region of the
conflict. No need to deploy our local boys halfway around the globe. The
savings in transportation costs alone would be staggering!

- Bill

Bill, we've analyzed just this type of scenario and yes we could save a
staggering amount, but the quality control just goes to hell.



--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Sun,  2 Feb 2003 10:47:02 -0500
From: "pawelka" <pawelka AT intrex.net>
To: <internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [internetworkers] where your job is headed ...
Reply-To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org

IBM has, in fact, moved its L2 Web site support to India. This would be
where you call if you encounter problems while browsing/buying from the
ibm.com site. AFAIK, they have not been "americanised" in any way beyond the
ability to speak english. Communication can still be difficult.

Lynn

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Scott Russell <scottrus AT ipass.net>
Reply-To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:35:23 -0500

On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 10:18:48PM -0500, Chris Hedemark wrote:
> On 1/30/03 8:56 PM, "David R. Matusiak" <dave AT matusiak.org> wrote:
> I know that some big blue company in the area that shall remain nameless
is
> guilty of this, too (moving jobs to India, IIRC).
>
> Indian workers are often given American sounding names, given voice
training
> to help shake the accent, they get to watch American satellite TV to learn
> our culture, etc.  The whole idea being when you call tech support your
call
> may be connected to someone in India but you're not supposed to be able to
> tell.

I worked in the Big Blue server group few years as L2 helpdesk support. We
were based in RTP and I know the group still is. (it makes good sense to put
your L2 server team on the same campus with your development and product
engineering teams.) IBM has call centers world wide for a long time now and
to my knowledge no one ever has had "Americanization" training.

That's not to say that IBM hasn't moved some jobs to .in and .cn in the past
and will most likely continue to do so given the economic trends.

--
  Scott
  Do not trifle with me, I have eaten 104 brains.

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