Homestead mailing list

[william Eggers <wce1482 AT yahoo.com>]

I took economics in college and had a heck of a time even passing it, so I am 
not into economic theory.  As a general rule however I think that it is 
always better to have people work for what they get instead of just giving it 
to them.

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, VAN DELL JORDAN <vdjor AT yahoo.com> wrote:

From: VAN DELL JORDAN <vdjor AT yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Go ld -- feel free to ignore
To: wce1482 AT yahoo.com
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 11:49 AM

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, william Eggers <wce1482 AT yahoo.com> wrote:

> Backing off won't work. And although as James says
> money must eventually come from work.  To get the system
> back on track. somehow money just go from those who have it
> now to those  who will spend it.  Work is best, but
> someone has to pay the workers and if the money is being
> hoarded by a few, no one is able to pay the workers,
> therefore they can not work and thus will have nothing with
> which to buy.  If the govenment sets up work that results
> in something to sell, we have socialism or communism.  So
> the government must find something or someway to get money
> to workers without undercutting business.  The Egyptians
> did it by building great monuments.  We have in the past
> done it by building roads and public buildings.  Regardless
> of how it is done, some way must be found to get the money
> back to those who will spend it.  First it must be pryed
> out of those who have stockpiled it up by unfair or illegial
> means then some way must be found to get
>  it to where it will do some good.  Just giving anything
> to anyone, be in workers or bankers, devaluates what is
> given.  To have value, it must be earned.  The only inity
> big enough to do this is the government.  If it
> doesn't, the debt it now has will be nothing to what it
> would be as the government income is mostly from workers and
> if they don't have, the government can't get it. 
> So it is either help the workers get some money to spend or
> everything as we know it goes down the drain.
> 

Would this be a good time to ask, what is money?  The basic purpose of money 
is
to provide a means for exchange of goods and services.  
If we provide a way for people to get there needs are we limited to the
traditional ways of creating money.
Maybe in times like this we need to see if current definitions of money supply
are appropriate?  I think the answer to this question gets very complex and 
gets
into economic theory.

I have often thought that perhaps we should find a way to provide a job for
everyone.  Start by turning any "welfare" into "workfare". 
If regular jobs are not available, then we could go to public works projects.
Van Dell




>From lurine AT softcom.net  Mon Dec  8 14:24:05 2008
Return-Path: <lurine AT softcom.net>
X-Original-To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 593C04C01F; Mon,  8 Dec 2008 14:24:05 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,MILLION_USD
        autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com 
[209.85.132.241])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530264C01C
        for <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon,  8 Dec 2008 14:23:50 -0500 
(EST)
Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c38so1334061ana.15
        for <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:23:49 -0800 
(PST)
Received: by 10.142.170.16 with SMTP id s16mr1624406wfe.308.1228764228861;
        Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:23:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from Moon (67-150-141-67.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com [67.150.141.67])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 32sm134799wfc.19.2008.12.08.11.23.35
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:23:48 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <008201c9596a$79a0b330$438d9643@Moon>
From: "Lynda" <lurine AT softcom.net>
To: <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:10:54 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: [Homestead] One More Reason to Raise It Yourself
X-BeenThere: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
List-Id: <homestead.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead>,
        <mailto:homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/homestead>
List-Post: <mailto:homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead>,
        <mailto:homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:24:05 -0000

PRO/AH/EDR> Dioxin contamination, pig meat - Ireland, Europe

DIOXIN CONTAMINATION, PIG MEAT - IRELAND, EUROPE
************************************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

[1] Ireland
Date: Sat 6 Dec 2008
Source: Irish Times [edited]
<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1206/breaking44.htm>


All Irish pork products have been recalled tonight [6 Dec 2008] 
because of fears that animal feed has been contaminated with harmful 
toxins.

The Food Safety Authority of Ireland made the announcement shortly 
before 8 pm after pig meat on a number of farms was found to have had 
between 80 and 200 times more dioxins that the recognized safety 
limit.

The recall affects all products produced since 1 Sep 2008, and the 
public have been advised to destroy all pork bought since that date.

The recall will have very severe repercussions for the State's pork 
industry, which is worth close to half a billion euros [USD 500 
million] annually.

The announcement was made at a joint press briefing held by the FSAI 
and the Departments of Health and Agriculture.

The contamination 1st came to light last Monday but was only 
confirmed by Government officials today [6 Dec 2008].

Agriculture Minister Brendan Smith said an "intensive investigation" 
had been underway this week. He said 47 farms, including 38 beef 
farms, had been restricted because they were identified as having 
received possibly contaminated animal feed. There was only one feed 
supplier involved, he said.

"Full prohibition of animal movement from these herds is in place. 
We've outlined the actions that we're taking on recall of pork and 
bacon following the receipt of the laboratory results earlier this 
evening. The issue of beef involvement is very different. Our 
assessment on the basis of advice from the Food Safety Authority of 
Ireland is that no further action at this stage other than what we 
have done in prohibiting movement off the farms is required. Testing 
is, however, taking place on a precautionary basis in line with our 
overall approach to this problem."

Earlier this week, restrictions were placed on a number of pig farms 
after organic pollutants known as polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), 
which are linked to dioxins, were detected in pork fat during routine 
monitoring.

Dioxins are complex organic compounds released into the atmosphere 
from fires and other forms of combustion. They are naturally 
occurring and accumulate in the fat of animal or in plant tissue.

They are mostly found in insignificant levels, but a small number are 
highly toxic and can cause a range of ailments from cancer to skin 
diseases and damage to the reproductive and immune systems.

Consumption of dioxins above safe levels over a lifetime may result 
in an increased risk of cancer. The World Health Organisation and the 
European Union's Scientific Committee for Food have determined the 
levels of exposure to dioxins which are safe. The pork tested this 
week had up to 200 times more dioxins than is considered safe.

Rod Evans, a spokesman for the FSAI told Irishtimes.com that the 
health risks were likely to be "very small" and said a short period 
"of higher level exposure to the dioxins is unlikely to have any 
health consequences."

The Minister for Health, Mary Harney, said she and Ministers Smith, 
Sargent and Wallace had spent the day in discussions with experts.

"I think we've acted in a timely fashion given that the confirmation 
happened at 3.40 this afternoon [6 Dec 2008] from the laboratories in 
York in the UK," she said.

"From now on, those products will be withdrawn from the market 
obviously here and internationally. We hope that non-contaminated 
pork products can be very quickly back on the market ... provided 
they operate to the highest possible standards as far as public 
health is concerned."

The president of the IFA Padraig Walshe said the recall was "an 
absolute disaster" at an "important time of the year for the pig 
sector." Speaking on RTE television, he said he expected "perfectly 
safe" pork from Irish producers to be on sale again by the middle of 
next week.

Tonight's [6 Dec 2008] recall involves retailers, the hospitality 
sector and the Irish pig processing sector, and the FSAI advised 
people "as a precautionary measure not to consume Irish pork and 
bacon products at this time."

The statement said investigations involving the Department of 
Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (DAFF) and the FSAI were continuing 
to determine the extent of the contamination and to identify the 
processors and products involved. It said that updates about the 
extent of the risk from human consumption would also be made 
available.

In recent years, there have been a number of dioxin contamination 
incidents of food worldwide. In 1998, dioxin-contaminated citrus pulp 
from Brazil was used in feed for dairy animals in France and resulted 
in contaminated milk. A year later in Belgium, dioxin-laden machine 
oil contaminated animal feed, affecting poultry, eggs, red meat and 
milk, which caused a major food crisis.

The pig farming industry is the 4th largest sector in Irish 
agriculture, and some 400 pig farmers are operating in the sector.

[Byline: Conor Pope and Mary Minhan]

- --
Communicated by:
ProMED-mail Rapporteur Mary Marshall

******
[2] Europe ex Ireland
Date: Sun 7 Dec 2008
Source: AFP [edited]
<http://www.google.com:80/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hxbM5LQKLljqnPfx4CdsCOHL-A-A>



Ireland launched an intensive investigation on Sunday [7 Dec 2008] to 
establish the source of a toxic substance that forced the recall of 
all Irish pork products, the country's food authorities said.

The Irish government ordered the recall on Saturday [6 Dec 2008] of 
all pig meat products made in the Republic of Ireland after dioxins 
were discovered in slaughtered pigs thought to have eaten 
contaminated feed. The recall included products sold in Ireland and 
abroad.

Contaminated Irish pork was found in France and Belgium, but the Food 
Safety Authority of Ireland (FSAI) said the problem was restricted to 
"Irish pig meat related to an Irish feedstuff." The European 
Commission said it was closely monitoring the situation.

The FSAI said it was almost certain that the source of the 
contamination was oil which mistakenly found its way into pig feed 
made at an Irish factory.

Dioxins are toxic chemicals that can have serious health effects, 
including causing cancers, if there is long-term exposure to them at 
high levels.

FSAI deputy chief executive Alan Reilly said dioxin levels found in 
meat samples were "between 80 and 200 times" above the legal limit. 
But he said the risk to public health was "very, very low. "You would 
have to be eating products containing these chemicals for 40 years 
before you would show any signs of illness."

Rhodri Evans, FSAI chief toxicology specialist, told AFP that oil was 
the most probable cause of the contamination and that it was 
"possibly" diesel oil at a plant in Ireland that used recycled bread 
and dough to make a pig feed. The feed plant supplied 9 pork 
producers. "The profile of the dioxin we have seen would indicate it 
is usually associated with some sort of oil contamination," he said.

Ireland's chief medical officer, Dr Tony Holohan, said the withdrawal 
of all pork products from the market was "a precautionary public 
health measure."

The recall involves pork meat, bacon, pork sausages, sausage meat, 
gammon steaks, offal from pigs, salami, ham, sausage rolls, black 
pudding and white pudding. The products concerned were all made since 
September 2008, because scientific evidence suggests the 
contamination was recent.

Ireland is a major exporter of pork with products sent to Britain -- 
the main destination -- and countries including Japan, Germany, 
Russia, France and the United States.

Laboratory tests in Britain had confirmed the presence of dioxins in 
both pig meat and pig feed samples. Evans said tests in France and 
Belgium had also revealed contaminated Irish pork products. Both 
countries had received products from a processing plant in the 
Netherlands where sides of pork from Ireland were boned and processed 
before being shipped on. "The initial detection was by the French 
authorities at import control. They did routine testing and saw a 
result," Evans said. "When they saw the result, they went back to the 
Netherlands processor and asked what's happening, where did this come 
from?" Evans said the problem only involved "Irish pig meat related 
to an Irish feedstuff."

The crisis is another blow to recession-hit Ireland, with the 
agriculture ministry saying about 5000 people work in the pig meat 
industry, which is worth about 400 million euros [USD 500 million] a 
year.

Ireland's Europe Minister Dick Roche said the contamination was "a 
shock to the system" for Irish agriculture.

The European Commission said in a statement it was "closely following 
up this contamination incident and the actions taken to withdraw any 
potentially contaminated pork meat and pork meat products from the 
market."

EU food safety experts were to discuss the incident by telephone on 
Sunday [7 Dec 2008], and experts from countries that may have 
received contaminated shipments would meet on Tuesday, said 
commission spokesman Pietro Petrucci.

- --
Communicated by:
Sabine Zentis
Castleview Pedigree English Longhorns
Gut Laach 52385 Nideggen, Germany
<CVLonghorns AT aol.com>

[Mod.TG recently wrote: "Although there seems to be no doubt in the 
lay press about dioxin's status as a carcinogen, there seems to be 
some controversy in the toxicology literature (Bertazzi PA, Bernucci 
I, Brambilla G, Consonni D, Pesatori AC: The Seveso studies on early 
and long-term effects of dioxin exposure: a review. Environ Health 
Perspect 1998 Apr; 106 Suppl 2:625-33, available at
<http://www.ehponline.org/docs/1998/Suppl-2/625-633bertazzi/abstract.html>)."

For WHO's Fact sheet N225 "Dioxins and their effects on human 
health," updated November 2007, go to
<http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs225/en/index.html>.
  - Mod.AS]

[Another news story communicated by ProMED-mail Rapporteur Mary Marshall
<http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081207/ts_nm/us_ireland_food_recall>
states that tainted pork products from Ireland may have reached 20-25 
countries.  - Mod.LM]

[see also:
Dioxin, buffalo mozzarella cheese - Italy: (Campania) 20080327.1146
2006
- ----
Dioxin, animal feed - Belgium (02) 20060206.0390
Dioxin, animal feed - Belgium 20060130.0303
2004
- ----
Dioxin, feed contamination - Netherlands (02): exported 20041110.3042
Dioxin, feed contamination - Netherlands 20041106.3009
2003
- ----
Dioxin, feed contamination - Germany (Thuringia) 20030210.0363
2001
- ----
Dioxin food levels, WHO statement 20010108.0065
2000
- ----
Dioxin contamination, fish - Europe 20001218.2213
1999
- ----
Dioxin in meat, poultry, eggs banned again - Belgium 19991109.2006
Dioxin & PCB contam., food - Belgium: update 19990729.1281
Dioxin in meat, poultry & eggs - Belgium (06) 19990630.1101
Dioxin food contamination, international response (06) 19990617.1032
Dioxin poultry ban lifted - Belgium (02) 19990613.1011
Dioxin & PCB contamination of food - Germany 19990613.1010
Dioxin: websites available 19990611.1002
Dioxin food contamination, international response (05) 19990611.1001
Dioxin & PCB contamination of food - Belgium 19990610.0999
Dioxin poultry ban lifted - Belgium 19990609.0989
Dioxin food contamination, international response (04) 19990609.0987
Dioxin health assessments (02) 19990609.0986
Dioxin food contamination, international response(03) 19990609.0980
Dioxin in meat, poultry & eggs - Belgium (04) 19990608.0978
Dioxin contamination of meat: USA response (02) 19990607.0967
Dioxin food contamination, international response(02) 19990607.0966
Dioxin contamination of meat: USA response 19990605.0941
Dioxin food contamination, international response 19990604.0930
Dioxin health assessments 19990604.0929
Dioxin contamination, pigs - Belgium 19990604.0928
Dioxin, chicken & eggs contaminated - Belgium 19990531.0913]
...................................................arn/msp/lm





Modern technology / Owes ecology / An apology. -Alan M. Eddison 




__,_._,___
>From lurine AT softcom.net  Mon Dec  8 14:57:52 2008
Return-Path: <lurine AT softcom.net>
X-Original-To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 0D40A4C01E; Mon,  8 Dec 2008 14:57:52 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=STOX_REPLY_TYPE
        autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com (yx-out-1718.google.com [74.125.44.153])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7E04C01C
        for <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon,  8 Dec 2008 14:57:51 -0500 
(EST)
Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 3so505075yxi.60
        for <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:57:50 -0800 
(PST)
Received: by 10.142.165.14 with SMTP id n14mr1652213wfe.58.1228766270013;
        Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:57:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from Moon (67-150-141-67.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com [67.150.141.67])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 32sm236087wfa.0.2008.12.08.11.57.25
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:57:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <017b01c9596f$33822960$438d9643@Moon>
From: "Lynda" <lurine AT softcom.net>
To: <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <6BB03797-5303-4029-BAFA-0012B4184E76 AT ruralize.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:32:16 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Perspective
X-BeenThere: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
List-Id: <homestead.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead>,
        <mailto:homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/homestead>
List-Post: <mailto:homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead>,
        <mailto:homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:57:52 -0000

And what's a hoot can be found in the e-mail I sent earlier.  The Irish
pigs, the Belgium chocolate, etc. have been contamined by feed which has
been contaminated by . . .  drumroll . . . the Chinese who are now batting
their eyelashes and *trying* to look innocent when they refuse food from
other countries.  They play pretend, using the good ol' grammar school kid
when he was caught "well, they did it too."  Ah NOT!

Well, except for the orange pulp which came from Brazil, most of the
contaminates that have gotten into the food sources have originated in
China!

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene GeRue" <genegerue AT ruralize.com>


> Much melamine chatter lately. I like balance. This is from
> ShanghaiDaily:
>
>
> Safety alert raised over some European foods
> By Chen Qian  |   2008-12-8  |     ONLINE EDITION
>
>
> A FOOD risk alert was raised after several foods imported from Europe
> were found with safety problems, the General Administration of Quality
> Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine announced.
>
> The administration asked all provincial Entry-Exit Inspection and
> Quarantine Bureaus to enforce the check to those foods for the next 90
> days, it said on its Website.
>
> Further action will be taken after an appraisal made in three months,
> the administration said.
>
> The unqualified foods were either destroyed or sent back, it said.
>
> Foods with safety problems included Belgian chocolate, Italian brandy,
> British sauce, eggs from the Netherlands and Spanish milk products.
>
> They were found containing chemical ingredients more than the national
> limit, the administration said.
>
> http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id83697&type=National
> _______________________________________________
> Homestead list and subscription:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead
> Change your homestead list member options:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/homestead/lurine%40softcom.net
> View the archives at:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/homestead
>
>