Kata Markon

["L. J. Swain" <larry.swain AT wmich.edu>]

Ralph Cox wrote:
> 
> Giving EIS PERASMON
> 
> A minor note on this discussion of EIS PERASMON:
> 
> The account of the failing disciples in the garden is part of the
> larger motif of their failing to grasp the whole moment; failing to
> understand his warning, failing to keep watch, failing to defend him,
> failing to stay with him, and Peter even failing to avoid denying
> Jesus three times.
> 
> It is very clear that, after Jesus has told them to stand watch, his
> telling them to "not enter into temptation" means to "not fail in
> standing watch" and to "not give in to the temptation to sleep."
 
Ralph, 
This is precisely what is not clear.  If you have been following this
discussion at all you would have seen that various positions are being
suggested, and that a solution is proffered in Jeffrey Gibson's paper,
and in that paper he refers us to several scholars who have noted just
how difficult this passage has been to interpret, and Jeffrey hasn't
mentioned all of the commentators who have had problems with the
passage.
So if you wish to maintain that this is the real reading, I'm afraid
I'll have to ask you to present evidence for the reading, and to engage
with not only what Jeffrey has written, but what others have written as
well.


> When Jesus returns and says KATEUDETE TO LOIPON, (literally "asleep
> [at] this moment"), he is saying "Your still asleep!", meaning "asleep
> on the job!", KAI ANAPAUESTHE, "and resting!", APEXE, "Enough!" This
> all means they all failed to avoid entering EIS PERASMON.

HMMM, well first, when Jesus returns in Mark 14:37, what he says is:
"Simwn, KAQEUDEIS;  I don't see "TO LOIPON, KAI ANAPAUESTHE, APEXE here
at all, so it seems that you are reading into the text or using a
different text to interpret Mark 14?  I must say that it doesn't make a
lot of sense to me to have Jesus tell them to "watch and pray so that
you avoid entering into testing" if that is indeed the very condition in
which he has just found them.  I doubt that he was closing the barn door
after the horses had bolted.

Larry Swain
 
> Ralph Cox rmiltonc AT hotmail.com 10-24-02
> 
> >From: "Eric Eve"
> >Reply-To: "Kata Markon"
> >To: "Kata Markon"
> >Subject: [gmark] Re: Critique of Gibson's Conference Paper
> >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:49:54 +0100
> >
> >Joe Alward wrote:
> >
> > > Too much emphasis I think has been paid to the esoterica of Greek
> grammar,
> > > and this has allowed some members, in my opinion, to pay less
> attention to
> > > context and obvious surface meaning than I believe they deserve.
> >
> > > I do not think we should imagine that the translation committees
> of dozens
> >of
> > > different Bible versions were all wrong about the context. They
> all made
> >it
> > > clear that they believed that Jesus was asking the disciples to
> pray for
> >the
> > > strength to stay awake until Jesus returned from his prayer, and I
> have a
> > > hunch that most members of this forum have a strong inkling that
> they were
> > > correct, no matter whether it is possible to see in the syntax and
> grammar
> > > alone the completely different meaning Gibson is proposing.
> >
> > > I think that if one doesn't let grammatical construction (using
> Sid's
> >words
> > > here) be a tail wagging a dog, and instead lets common sense and
> context
> > > rule, then just on the basis alone of the outline I have presented
> above,
> >I
> > > think we have no choice but to choose the first one, never mind
> all of the
> > > other reasons I mentioned elsewhere.
> >
> >This argument is very odd. I should have thought that many people on
> this
> >list would imagine that paying attention to Greek grammar and the
> semantic
> >range of Greek words were fundamental prerequisites to determining
> what the
> >"obvious surface meaning" of a Greek text actually is. Jeffrey's
> argument is
> >that Mark's audience could not have heard MH ELQHTE EIS PEIRASMON as
> "lest
> >you be tempted/tested", and there must be limits to the extent that
> context
> >can determine meaning. If you cannot meet Jeffrey's arguments at this
> level,
> >you haven't got a case - you simply make yourself sound like someone
> who
> >repeatedly urges that Einstein must be wrong because common sense
> shows we
> >live in Newtonian universe and then refuses to engage in any argument
> that
> >involves mathematics on the grounds that the mathematical dog is
> wagging the
> >tail of common sense observation.
> >
> > > The story goes like this:
> >
> > > 1. Jesus says, do not fall asleep
> >
> > > 2. Jesus goes away.
> >
> > > 3. Jesus returns and finds them asleep.
> >
> > > 4 Jesus tells them to pray that God give them the strength
> >
> > > a. not to fall asleep, again
> > > b. not to test God.
> >
> >
> >You have previously urged a connexion between this scene and Mark
> 13.32-37.
> >Mark 13 is surely not concerned with literal, physical sleep, as if
> Jesus
> >were commanding his followers to suffer permanent sleep deprivation
> until
> >his return. This might be a clue that 'sleep' and 'watchfulness' have
> >metaphorical connotations which could be carried over into this
> passage.
> >Instead of taking GRHGOREITE to mean "don't fall asleep" at Mk 14.34,
> one
> >might translate it "Watch out!" (for what is unspecified at this
> point). The
> >disciples' sleepiness then shows their failure to watch out, but it
> isn't
> >the main point. What you don't explain is why, in this context, Jesus
> should
> >be so concerned about purely physical sleep (since having the
> disciples stay
> >awake when they're tired serves no obvious purpose in the story).
> >
> >Nowhere does Mark 14.38 mention praying for strength, so your
> alternatives
> >4. a and b are already a misrepesentation. To render MH ELQHTE EIS
> PEIRASMON
> >as 'for strength not to fall asleep, again' is surely highly
> questionable -
> >one might even see it as an attempt to foist a meaning onto the text.
> Your
> >reasoning, as I understand it, is that (despite Jeffrey's evidence to
> the
> >contrary), 'enter into testing' means 'be tested' and that the test
> in
> >question is that of staying awake when one wishes to fall asleep.
> But, quite
> >apart from any other problems with this reading, at the point in
> Mark's
> >story that Jesus utters these words, the disciples have already
> failed this
> >test (assuming for the sake of argument that the text sees it as a
> test). A
> >fortiori, they must already be subject to this test. To pray not to
> be
> >subjected to this test would then be plain daft (amongst other things
> it
> >would be a prayer to change the past). So despite what you assert, it
> seems
> >to me that common sense and context fail to support your reading of
> the
> >text.
> >
> >Best wishes,
> >
> >Eric
> >----------------------------------
> >Eric Eve
> >Harris Manchester College, Oxford
> >
> >
> >
> >
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