Corpus-Paul

[Siu Fung Wu <siufung.wu AT worldvision.com.au>]

SFW:  Thank you, Harold.

I wonder anyone else can give further comments to my previous questions? I
would appreciate that.

Also, I wonder whether I can advance my thoughts further. Perhaps suffering
has more important roles in Romans than one might have thought. If Paul has
in mind, in part, to explain to Jewish believers why they are still
suffering from sword and famine even though the new age has come, then
maybe there is a strong link between Romans 8:18-39 and Romans 9-11.
Perhaps to some degree the present suffering is part of the necessary
salvation history in which Gentiles have to come to Christ in order to
cause jealousy in Israel. Also, Paul's previous argument on God's wrath and
judgement may have a lot to do with the sufferings that are supposed to
come as a result of wrath and judgement, which is of course a clear theme
in the OT. Maybe all along Paul has been thinking about the suffering of
believers and, at least to some degree, he has 8:18-39 in mind when he
wrote Romans 1-8. Does this make any sense?

Siu Fung Wu
Melbourne, Australia


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             Harold Holmyard                                               
             <hholmyard AT ont.co                                             
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                                       Re: [Corpus-Paul] Questions on the  
             06/01/2006 02:03          hardship list Romans 8:35           
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Siu Fung Wu wrote:

>I wonder whether someone can help me with these questions.
>
>Romans 8:35 lists a few types of suffering (that cannot separate us from
>the love of Christ), which include persecution, famine, nakedness, danger
>and sword.
>
>Some commentators think that Paul has the eschatological woes in mind. And
>there is a tendency to think that Paul is referring "specifically" to his
>and the church's sufferings, because we can find parallels in Paul's
>writings elsewhere (such as 2 Cor 4 and 11). For example, famine (or
>hunger) and nakedness can be found in 2 Cor 11:27.
>
>But I wonder whether Romans 8:35 in fact refers to suffering "in general",
>although the persecution faced by Paul and the church is not far from the
>apostle's mind. By "general" I mean that the suffering is not specifically
>due to the preaching of the gospel (ie. due to an action/activity of
>Christian). Also, I wonder whether Paul has in mind to answer the
>interlocutor's questions in light of OT deuteronomic history, where sin
>would lead to suffering but obedience would lead to peace and prosperity.
>
>My thoughts are: Paul is thinking of the suffering of the righteous in
>Romans 8. There is no condemnation for those in Christ, but the question
is
>why the Christian community - both Jews and Gentiles - are still
suffering.
>The answer is that, until the consummation of the new age, the righteous
>still have to suffer - a concept found in the OT, with Job's suffering
>being a prime example.
>
>Hunger/famine and sword are common forms of suffering in the ancient
world.
>But specifically famine and sword are covenantal curses (in Deut) and are
>warnings of the prophets (e.g. Jeremiah). Paul's audience must be asking
>how come they are still suffering from famine (e.g. famine in the
Jerusalem
>area) and/or sword (e.g. occupation by the Roman empire), which are
>seemingly judgement from God. If Jesus' death and resurrection signifies
>the new age of peace and prosperity, how come famine and sword are still
>around? Paul has to address this question somehow, given the fact that he
>has argued that there is no longer condemnation for those in Christ.
>
>I certainly am not an expert in this area, but I hope this makes some
>sense.
>
>

HH: I think your idea of suffering in general is best. Paul is simply
saying that the worst sort of earthly trials cannot separate us from
God's love. The issue is not necessarily eschatological questions or a
strictly persecutory setting. Existence offers a lot of difficulties to
anyone, including a believer, since God has not promised believers
immunity from suffering in this age. But nothing can break the bond of
love between God and His children. The context seems to be the futility
under which existence has been placed since the fall (Rom 8:20), one
only to be removed at the renewal of the earth and the glorification of
the redeemed (8:19, 23).

Yours,
Harold Holmyard

>Thank you,
>Siu Fung Wu
>Melbourne, Australia
>
>
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