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corpus-paul - Re: Realized eschatology

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  • From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald AT shaw.ca>
  • To: 'Corpus-paul' <corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re: Realized eschatology
  • Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 22:35:40 -0700


SEMcGinn:
>>I do not agree that Rom 8:30 qualifies as realized eschatology, although
it may be the kind of seed from which the realized eschatology of the later
letters arose. ... <<

Bob: response
The original issue was the difference in tone between the seven undisputed
letters and Ephesians & Colossians. The phrase 'realized eschatology' was I
believe originally applied by CH Dodd and others to the Gospels and
particularly to the parables. Perhaps it is a misleading term here. I would
certainly not have taken it to mean that the parousia or the resurrection
had already taken place, a fear of the author of 2 Timothy (2:10), and
almost an implication of 1 Corinthians 4:8- they party while Paul is
persecuted! The question for me was whether the extended metaphor of "us in
Christ" as in Ephesians (2:6) and Colossians (1:12-13, 1:22, 2:12, 3:1 etc)
can be seen in the seven undisputed letters.

I could only find places like Romans 8:30 and 1 Cor 6:11, 2 Cor 5:1 - so
there does appear to be a difference in the use of "in Christ" in the
earlier letters. The "us in Christ" in the earlier letters is more
earthly - more a present reality and hope. In Colossians and Ephesians it is
also a heavenly reality (as in 2 Cor 5:1). The security seems similar - a
completed task which, in the already but not yet, we are expected to work
out.

Sheila:
>>And this is why I disagree with your conclusion that v. 30 is a case where
"[Paul] then goes and gets totally carried away himself." ...<<

Bob:
What I mean is: he is 'carried away' in the certainty of his hope as I am
carried away every time I read this passage (8:35-39).

Sheila:
>>(but this is not an individualistic reality, nor is it the same as
"resurrection," which must involve bodily transformation).<<

Bob:
I am not sure if I implied an 'individualistic' reality. Perhaps my getting
carried away - an Elijah image I guess! :) I think I would have to disagree
that Paul's statements of our having been called, sanctified, justified,
glorified, etc do not apply to individuals or do not have a present as well
as a future reality. I doubt he would have continued as an apostle if there
had been no benefit for him as an individual. This is not a mercenary
benefit - who wants the wages! But as C.S. Lewis suggests in his wartime
sermon (Weight of Glory), it is a real reward, a valuable gift, a
consequence of a persistent faith.

Thanks for the responses -

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald AT shaw.ca
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca





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