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  • From: "Liz Fried" <lizfried AT umich.edu>
  • To: "Corpus-paul" <corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: RE: Pre-existence of Christ
  • Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:29:58 -0400


> From: Robert M Schacht [mailto:bobschacht AT juno.com]

> >> > Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > .... For instance, it is by no means
> >> > > clear that pre-existence of Jesus is assumed or taught in the
> >> > > Christ hymn in Philippians...
> >> > >
> >> > Dear Jeffrey,
> >> > Please explain to me why you do not think the hymn in Phillippians
> >> > implies that Jesus was pre-existent. .....
>
> [Jeffrey replies:]
> >>
> >> Not to be flippant, but I'd first like you to tell me why you or
> >> anyone should assume
> >> that the Christ hymn in Philllipains **does** make such an
> >assumption.
>
> [Liz replies:]
> >
> >The verses describe Jesus Christ as having thoughts prior to being
> >born.
> >
>
> [Jeffrey:]
> >>
> >> As for GJohn, yes that **would** be, I fear, off topic. But just
> >> one hint, what is
> >> "with" God, and what is asserted as having the nature of God
> >> ("what the word was God
> >> was" to use C.H. Dodd's felicitous phrasing) is NOT the man
> >> Jesus, but the Word.,
> >> which from the point of view of the prologue of GJohn, only later
> >> comes to "dwells
> >> among us" in Jesus.
>
> [Liz:]
> >
> >Then let's get back to 1 Cor. 8:6. What does this verse mean?
> >If Paul is saying it is Jesus, not Torah, then the talmudic legend
> >asserts
> >the torah existed before creation.
> >I think that is what is being said in the prologue to John too, that
> >it is
> >Jesus not torah. But the torah is prior to creation. It is from Prov.
> >8.
> >So why don't you think these verses assert Jesus' preexistence?
> >
> >Liz
>
[Bob Schacht:]
> I think that the difficulty here is about what you both mean by "Jesus,"
> which seems to shift as this dialogue progresses. Perhaps our English
> vocabulary is not well-suited to discussing pre-existant forms.
>
> Pre-existant form #1: "Jesus" consisted of a dis-embodied consciousness,
> capable of having thoughts, self-aware, aware of difference between self
> and other
>
> Pre-existant form #2: "Jesus" consisted of something else (Torah? Logos?)
> that was not necessarily conscious, having thoughts, self aware, etc.
>
> Pre-existant form #3: "Jesus" was not something with an independent
> existance, but was an attribute of some other entity that differentiated
> when he was "made flesh".
>
> Unfortunately, we do not have much of a vocabulary for discussing
> disembodied spirits. We tend to operate on analogies with physical bodies
> (pre-existant form #1), and we get lost when we try to talk about things
> such as the trinity and pre-existant form #3.
> Doesn't this take us straight back to platonism? What is it's typology of
> disembodied spirits?
>
> Another problem is jumping to conclusions from a limited datum. For
> example, I gather that from your Christ hymn in Philippians datum, it
> looks like you conclude that they must mean something like pre-existant
> form #1.
>
> Bob
[Liz]

Bob, this is really helpful. Yes, I think the poem in Phill has #1 in mind.
Looking again at GJohn 1, the poem originally may not have referred to
Christ at all, but perhaps to the torah. This is what Jeffrey was getting
at. Certainly tho it was *used* by the author of GJohn to refer to Christ. I
think maybe as #3. This is very interesting. OK, now what about ! Cor
8:15? where would that fit in?
Re: Platonism and a typology of disembodied souls. I conceive of it as in
the Wisd of Sol. The author implies he does not know whether he was a body
waiting for a soul, or a soul looking for a body. This strikes me as really
interesting. This is what the abortion issue is about. The souls are up (?)
somewhere hanging around waiting to be born. They have a separate identity.
This seems to be what is described in Phill 2. Getting back to 1 Cor 8:15,
I think that may be #3.

Looking again at John 1 (sorry Jeffrey) he speaks there of the glorsy, doxa,
of God. What is this exactly? Alan Segal suggests the early Christians, and
Paul, assimilated Jesus to the doxa. That would be #3 as well.

what do you think?

Liz
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