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Subject: Development of Creative Commons licenses

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  • From: drew Roberts <zotz AT>
  • To: Discussion on the Creative Commons license drafts <cc-licenses AT>
  • Subject: Re: [cc-licenses] Founders as a module? was Re: Getting to Version 3.0
  • Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:47:32 -0400

On Thursday 25 May 2006 08:03 pm, Greg London wrote:
> >> ShareAlike isn't a business model. It's a model,
> >> but it isn't based on business. The business
> >> model is the Cathedral. ShareAlike is the Bazaar.
> >
> > I am not sure this jibes with ESR's take on the
> > cahtedral and the bazaar. IIRC, he sees each as
> > a development model. Two different ways of making
> > the product. That you have a business model built
> > around the final creation is a somewhat different
> > matter.
> Take any Intellectual Works project. does'nt matter
> what it is. Wikipedia or Microsoft Windows.
> The project will take N man-hours of work to create.
> You can either get a small number of people to work
> a large number of hours to get N hours
> p * H = N
> or you can get a large number of people to work small
> numbers of hours to get N hours total.
> P * h = N

Honestly, I know what you are getting at, and don't disagree with that. But,
this is not correct.

See for instance:

> The first describes the cathedral. The second describes
> bazaar. While ESR used the metaphors to describe a
> development model, it also happens to map very well
> to the division of labor in a project.

I just think that since the metaphor is alread used in a famous way by
in the general area, that you might be better served to find another. (This
is certainly a humble opinion though.)
> Cathedral is top-down, centrally controlled, which
> naturally lends itself to fewer people working on
> the project, but working longer hours each, which
> lends itself to full-time employees getting paid
> directly for their time put into the project.


> Bazaar is bottom-up, chaotically controlled, which
> naturally lends itself to many people working on
> the project, each working small bits, which lends
> itself to part time contributers who aren't making
> a living at it, but are contributing because they
> support the project's goals, and they can afford the
> time it takes to contribute.
> Now, take a look at various, specific Intellectual
> Work projects. The way they naturally chunk controls
> whether Cathedral or Bazaar is the natural choice
> for the project.
> Software chunks relatively easily. the only thing
> that matters is functionality and some semblance of
> maintainability. applications can be built up and
> accumulated until you've got a suite of FLOSS stuff
> from operating system to word processor. And it
> helped that RMS made people believe it was possible
> to achieve by starting with some seed programs.
> Wikipedia chunks easily because individual articles
> are small. aggregation works there, even though
> different articles may have different voices or tones.
> Projects that don't chunk easily can't be accomplished
> easily in Bazaar mode. Contributers don't contribute
> if they don't think the project has a chance of success.

I would not argue with this.
> A fiction novel will not make a good bazaar-style project.

If it did, I would be amazed.

> A project that is a collection of novels or a collection
> of short stories or a collection of unchunkable pieces,
> might work in bazaar mode.

> >> The Bazaar works by lowering the cost to contribute
> >> so that many people can donate small amounts of time.
> >> The incentive to contribute is not money but that the
> >> project is intending to create something that is in
> >> alignment with what the contributer wants, and the
> >> project itself has a plausible chance for success.

I think your basic point that the smaller and easier to create the chunks
the more a bazaar like process can easily fly is spot on. (Did I restate your
main point accurately?)
> >
> > That may or may not be, for instance, I have needed to
> > put an application in place at a client several years ago.
> > I found a gpl program that nearly fit the bill. I charged
> > the client for my time in making the mods, put it in
> > place, and released the improved code back to the world.
> > The client was happy. There was an improved tool available
> > to the world.
> You, one person, did the entire job, and you got paid
> directly for all of your work. That is top-down mode
> That's cathedral. It doesn't matter that the raw
> materials you used were GPL.

Nope, you are wrong here. I took an existing small GPL program. Made a few
small but very valuable changes to it, got paid for a few hours work and left
the program for the next person to improve as needed.
> If the project had been Bazaar, the vendor would have
> put a call out to the world asking for modifications
> to get something done, and maybe a bunch of people would
> have decided to work on creating it together, bottom up.
> Instead of one guy working 100 hours, maybe it woudl take
> 100 guys each putting in 1 hour over the span of several
> weeks.

I think your conception as to all the possibilities of a bazaar may be too
limited. IT is possible to work as you outline and each person take a part
and then fit the whole thing together at the end. But it is alsp possible
that each person works with the whole. One now, one later, each adding some
functionality or improvement or fixing some bug.

> Instead, they came to you, told you what they wanted,
> and paid you to get it done, whatever it took. One guy,
> full-time, working on the project, top down.

No, thye didn't. I knew what they needed. I wanted to save them money. I
existing code to use as a starting point. I made the changes. (This was a
part of a larger project I was doing for them.) I got paid for the time.
> It's either a small number of people working long hours
> or its a large number of people working short hours
> p * H = N (cathedral)
> P * h = N (bazaar)

Or some working long hours and many working short, etc.
> And this particular project you describe was one guy
> doing all the work, which is clearly cathedral mode.

The thing is, like I said, I didn't do all the work. A large part was already
done, and that in may ways is the beauty of the thing.

all the best,

Record a song and you might win $1,000.00

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