Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Samuel Nunez <samuelnunez1973 AT sbcglobal.net>]

George,

Thank you for the reference to your article. I will take the time to read it carefully.

Regarding your keen observation that I equate the Messiah prince (Dan 9:25) with Davidic royal expectation in the phrase mashiah nagid, I also see this to be the case in am nagid (9:26) and negid berit (11:22);  based on what seems to be an overall expectation of a royal/priestly figure ruling the people in Jerusalem (see also Jer. 33:15-18).

It seems to me that the period of waiting 69 weeks or 483 years is fairly long for it to be just any anointed one. If my understanding is correct, Daniel 9:24-27 focuses on two things: 1) the city (building and destruction) and a unique leader/prince (anointed, has a people and makes a covenant with many). The starting verse 24 also indicates a number of events that surround this anointed one through a string of infinitives: to make an end of rebellion, to seal up sin, to make atonement for iniquity,  to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

These are a few reasons why I understand the term nagid in a royal/priestly sense with in this context. 

Cheers!

Samuel

On Oct 16, 2012, at 10:54 PM, George Athas wrote:

Samuel,

As I did with Karl, I refer you to my article on the 70 weeks issue: http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_104.pdf.

One of the things that seems to be biasing your argument in a particular way is that you see the text referring to THE messiah. But this is not the case. It refers to an anointed one, but does not necessarily equate this anointed one with Davidic royal expectation. In any case, please have a read of my article where I discuss the logic of some of the proposed solutions, as well as the syntax of the Hebrew involved, and the narrative framework of Daniel as a book. You'll see that the calculation of the 70 weeks, if it is consecutive weeks, leads us nowhere in terms of dates. However, a non-consecutive approach lead us to a specific year, a specific event (the assassination of the high priest Onias III), something that makes sense of the dating system employed in Daniel, and the redefinition of exile that is going on ch. 9.

Cheers!

GEORGE ATHAS

Dean of Research,

Moore Theological College (moore.edu.au)

Sydney, Australia

From: Samuel Nunez <samuelnunez1973 AT sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wednesday, 17 October 2012 9:06 AM
To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:21�27

Dear Karl,

I agree that  "there is no reason from linguistics or history to assume that the final seven years to be connected to Antiochus Epiphanes, and much to argue against such an assumption."

On the other hand, I disagree that, "there is nothing from the language that says that the seven sevens and the 62 sevens are consecutive." The context is helpful to resolve this issue, because verse 24 explicitly refers to a 70 week time period.

We would all agree that Daniel 9: 24 is most likely referring to 70 consecutive week period. In the following verses the text  breaks this 70 week time period into three parts, namely 7 weeks, 62 weeks and one week, in order to share specific information regarding the starting point and events occurring after the 69th week. 

The beginning of the 70 week period is described in verse 25 with an edict to build the streets and walls of Jerusalem during the first 7 weeks or 49 years. This verse then mentions this important  62 week period and adds it to the 7 week period to describe the coming or appearing of the Messiah Prince. Verse 26 mentions that after the 62 week period another event would take place, namely the death of the Messiah or anointed one. The focus of Daniel 9:24-27 seems to be, as far as I understand,  the events happening after the 62 week period or in my view events occurring at least 69 weeks or 483 years after the edict to build the walls of Jerusalem (Ez 7:11). 

As previously mentioned, one of these events is the appearing of The Messiah Prince (v. 25). Another is the death of the Messiah (v. 26). Still another is the destruction of the temple and city (v. 26). Then it describes him (Messiah) confirming a covenant with many,  a ceasing (shabat) of sacrifice and offering in the middle of the last or 70th week; the last part of the verse gives the reason or cause of the destruction of the desolate city (Jerusalem) as being idolatry or false worship (shiqqutz).

It is my understanding that this 70 week time period or 7 week and 62 week and one week period of Daniel 9: 24-27 are consecutive.

Samuel Nunez

On Aug 23, 2012, at 2:53 PM, K Randolph wrote:

George:

Yes, I notice that you agree with me that there is nothing from the
language that says that the seven sevens and the 62 sevens had to be
consecutive. In other words, both time periods could have started at the
same date. Personally I think it fits both linguistics and history better
so read.

But much of the rest of your analysis stretches credulity except among
those who teach Documentary Hypothesis. There is no reason from linguistics
and history to assume that the final seven years to be connected with
Antiochus Epiphanes, and much to argue against such an assumption.

Karl W. Randolph.

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 3:17 AM, George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>wrote:

Karl,

I wrote an article on this. You'll find it here:

http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_104.pdf

GEORGE ATHAS

Dean of Research,

Moore Theological College (moore.edu.au)

Sydney, Australia

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