b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum
List archive
- From: "Philip Hardy" <technologist1 AT gmx.us>
- To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org,"Nir cohen - Prof. Mat." <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>
- Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?
- Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:59:59 -0400
I believe verse 1:1 of Genesis says "The mighty one made the matter(material)
and the vast expanse(immaterial) between all matter."
Then a period of time transpires. and in verse two we have continuance
followed by narrative of processes.
Philip Hardy
From: Nir cohen - Prof. Mat.
Sent: 08/29/12 11:25 AM
To: steve AT voiceInWilderness.info, b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?
steven, quite a few chapters/paragraphs of genesis may be seen as an
"initial title", or a statement of intent, followed by a more detailed
account. the "title", though, does not always qualify as a true summary of
the events which follow. 1:1, 2:4, 5:1, 6:9, 6:14, 7:1, 9:1, 10:1 (this
chapter uses also "initial and terminal subtitles"), 18:1, 22:1, 36:1 (with
subtitles), 37:2, 49:1. i imagine other books may contain more examples. as
to the vav, it may very well be that what you call "sounding correct in
english" is partly the very contribution of the king james style...though i
admit that "so/and so" is often used as initial in speech, against the
grammarians' recommendations. the decision to use the yiqtol or qatal form is
contextual, and so it is difficult to make a general statement on how the
text should follow the "title". i think that the principle is that the
ensuing text should remain "BH-correct" if the title is simply deleted. nir
cohen [Steve Miller:] In v1 God created the heavens and the earth. In the
following verses, the planet earth already existed. So, v1 cannot be a
summary, but an action. In vv9-10 He made the dry land and named that
"earth". That is a different meaning of the word earth: the planet earth in
v1, and the dry land in v10. Similarly in v1, the heavens is the universe,
but in v8, God made the atmosphere around the earth and named that "heavens"
also. "Day" has 3 meanings in Gen 1-2:4. even if you are technically correct,
i still see in 1:1 a title of the whole material of gen 1-2 (most biblical
interpreters see in the "creation story" in gen 1-2 a six day process). (see
especially in this context 2:1). also, ch 2:4-24 overlaps with ch. 1 and
provides more detail. > > Genesis Chapter 22 בְּרֵאשִׁית > א וַיְהִי, אַחַר
הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, וְהָאֱלֹהִים, נִסָּה אֶת-אַבְרָהָם; וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו,
אַבְרָהָם וַיֹּאמֶר > הִנֵּנִי. 1 And it came to pass after these things,
that God did prove > Abraham, > and said unto him: 'Abraham'; and he said:
'Here am I.' > > here, too, "god proved abraham" is a summary of the entire
chapter, while > "and said to him" is already the starting point of the more
detailed narrative. [Steve Miller:] This does seem to be a summary followed
by "and". I didn't know such a case existed. Thanks for finding this. The
"and"'s here in both of your examples are vav-consecutives, while in 1:2 it
is an "and" attached to a noun, which has a different meaning. The
vav-consecutive, which is much more common, continues the main story line,
while a sentence starting with "and"-noun indicates a break in the story
line, often indicating a chapter break. >>> An odd thing about this verse is
that here we have a summary followed by an "and", which should not be allowed
in English, yet it sounds fine in English. Yet, if I were to change the
structure to be more like Gen 1:1-2: And it came to pass after these things
that God proved Abraham. And Abraham was 100 years old. Then it doesn't sound
right in English. The "and" needs to be removed. I don't know why. It just
doesn't sound right. > consider also: > > Genesis Chapter 10 בְּרֵאשִׁית > א
וְאֵלֶּה תּוֹלְדֹת בְּנֵי-נֹחַ, שֵׁם חָם וָיָפֶת; וַיִּוָּלְדוּ לָהֶם
בָּנִים, אַחַר הַמַּבּוּל. 1 Now these > are > the generations of the sons of
Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and unto > them were sons born after the flood.
> > "these are the generations..." is a summary, "and unto them..." is
already > part of the detailed narrative. [Steve Miller:] Here the whole
verse could be taken as the summary. Then it is not followed by "and". Here
also 10:1 sounds fine in English, even taking 10:1a as the summary and 10:1b
as the details. But if you change the structure to be like Gen 1:1-2: And
these are the generations of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham and Japheth. And
Japheth was 60 years old. Then it doesn't sound right. > > etc etc [Steve
Miller:] If you have more examples of opening summaries followed by "and",
I'd like to see them. > nir cohen > > >> karl: There was a very ancient
literary style in which the titular or > >> summary > statement was at the
end of a chapter or document, not the beginning. I’m > not the only one, but
others, too, have noted that Genesis can be broken up > into several such
chapters, with the summary “This is the bringing forth…” > as the closing
statement. That makes the summary, titular verse of Genesis > 1 to be Genesis
2:4. [Steve Miller:] I agree. Gen 2:4 summarizes Gen 1. It does not summarize
the verses which follow, which are details about the creation of man.
_______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?
, (continued)
- Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?, Nir cohen - Prof. Mat., 08/29/2012
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?,
Nir cohen - Prof. Mat., 08/29/2012
- Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?, K Randolph, 08/29/2012
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?,
Oun Kwon, 08/28/2012
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?,
Jerry Shepherd, 08/28/2012
- Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?, K Randolph, 08/29/2012
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?,
Jerry Shepherd, 08/28/2012
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?,
Steve Miller, 08/29/2012
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?,
Jerry Shepherd, 08/29/2012
- Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?, K Randolph, 08/29/2012
- Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?, Nir cohen - Prof. Mat., 08/29/2012
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?,
Jerry Shepherd, 08/29/2012
-
Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?,
Philip Hardy, 08/30/2012
- Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?, George Athas, 08/30/2012
- Re: [b-hebrew] beginning or end?, Nir cohen - Prof. Mat., 08/31/2012
Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.