Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com>]

Thank you for this, Karl. This is a constructive conversation.

> After years of just reading for meaning (hence the writing of a dictionary)
> while ignoring grammar, I find these forays into grammar both interesting
> and educational.
>

 ...



> It was my question, the list is intended to stimulate discussion.
> Something of the following was desired.
>
> Which structures were available?
> The list was intended to stimulate, not be inclusive or exclusive.
> But surely you could find first person prefix forms with +ah for statments
> of permission?
> E.g. Gen 19.8 אוציאה- נא
> Jud 15.1 אבאה אל אשתי
> They were the 'corrrect' or 'best' answer in the list.
> [KR]
>
Looking at Tanakh, this is a special case that afflicts only the first
> person singular and plural yiqtol verbs. The -H suffix gives the meaning
> “let me …” where it is usually, though not always, followed by נא. Where the
> -H suffix is overridden by a pronominal suffix, the נא is present.
>
> This is the form asking for permission.
>

Yes.


>
>
>>
>> הבה is used in situations like Gen 11.3, 4, 7, and Jud 20:7 as well as
>> singular situations like Gen 29.21 הבה לי (where its original meaning
>> 'give'
>> fits) and Gen 38.16 הבה נא אבוא אליך, but is it good for a classroom? I
>> would think not, unless it might have provided a formalism for student to
>> teacher. But the overall structure is not attested [while נתן 'give' is
>> attested with a following infinitive, the relatively rare יהב 'give' is
>> not], so it is best not to use. The point is to show that there may have
>> been such a structure, to give some awareness of potential holes in
>> system.
>>
>
> From what I found, הבה Let ... (followed by a yiqtol verb), not from the
> root יהב . It is found only four times, Genesis 11:3, 4, 7, Exodus 1:10.
>
> All the other times where I found הבה used, it is used in the general
> context of “to hand over, to deliver” an object or a service. This use is
> from the root יהב.
>

You are correct on the usages, but hypothesizing two words, two roots
doesn't seem necessary. One word used in two contexts is an easier
hypothesis. And for two roots one would like some solid morphological
support.


>
>
>>
>> Similarly with תן 'give' and הנח 'place'. both verbs are attested in
>> contexts where they can mean 'allow, give permission'. See Jud 15.1 above:
>> ולא נתנו אביה לבוא 'and her father did not give him [=permit him] to "go
>> in".' There are multiple permutations, of course, תן, תן לי, תנה, תנה לי,
>> תן
>> נא, תן נא לי, הנח, הנח לי, הניחה לי, הנח נא, הנח נא לי, הניחה נא לי. I
>> doubt
>> whether all of the permutations are attested, I haven't checked. It is
>> open
>> for constructive discussion. In any case the imperative with an infinitive
>> is not used for requesting permission in the Bible.
>>
>
I should probably have added that the negative construction with 'don't
give/allow is attested.
Jos 10.19 al titnum la-vo אל תתנומ לבוא
  "don't give opportunity/allow them to enter"
but this isn't simple permission.


>
>> The last item הרשני לצאת 'permit me to go out' was a purposeful example of
>> potential Late Biblical
>> Hebrew. Checking on this here, I find that a noun (רשיון) is attested in
>> Ezra and the verb is attested in DSS  (Dam. 11.20). Should one exclude it,
>> or include it? Personally, I don't see any problem with it and it fits the
>> SecondTemple language, but I don't use it in class (nor would I assume
>> that
>> Brian would, specifically because there are people out there looking for
>> excuses not to use this methodology.) [PS: The question of how much Second
>> Temple 'high' Hebrew to allow is a policy question with no 'right' answer.
>> On the side, I certainly disagree with the assumption that there were no
>> mother-tongue Hebrew speakers in the SecondTemple period. There certainly
>> were, and those in the last two to four generations with competency in all
>> the necessary data and skills to deal with the question agree with me. But
>> if you wish to differ, please start another thread. Your difference has
>> been
>> duly noted, and registered as 'doubtful'.]
>>
>
> There is no credible evidence I have seen to support this assertion.
> Emotionally, I’d prefer it to be true, but with the lack of evidence I have
> to conclude it to be unfounded.
>

As you wish, for yourself. There is plenty of evidence, but it is technical
and must be carefully sifted. Alot of objections to one point or another may
sound right superficially, many long ago mentioned by Dalman or Geiger, but
a fuller picture regularly shows the inapplicability or inadmissability.
Again, it says something that the specialists side with Hebrew continuing on
as a mother tongue during the Second Temple. It's not really a live issue
any longer, just waiting for the field to catch up and write the appropriate
dictionaries and background introductions so that incoming students don't
always start on the wrong foot. We have a collection of articles coming out
on this with Brill, soon.


>
>
>>
>> >The closest I can
>> > think of would be “May I go out?” אצא נא החוצה
>> Yes, אצא נא החוצה works.
>> And I am perfectly happy with 1 Sam 22.3 as PARTIAL support. Of course, it
>> is a third person quotation where the 'ah' ending was not an option. So
>> for
>> the first person one might expect both אצאה נא and אצא נא and also  אצאה
>> and potentially even אצא. Lamed-alef verbs frequently omit the -ah option,
>> but they also include them. And other verbs more frequently use the -ah
>> ending, (lamed-yod, a.k.a. lamed-he, excepted, of course).
>>
>> On vocab, לצאת is more appropriate than לעזוב in most situations.
>>
>
> Well, from meaning, the first means exiting, the second the idea of leaving
> behind, abandoning. In requesting permission to exit a room, the second
> doesn’t fit.
>

 Correct, for briefly leaving a room. For someone leaving early to travell
for the weekend, they might want la`azov.


>
>
>>
>> The point of this excercise is to see an area where bHebrew may prefer to
>> handle something syntactically, e.g. אכתבה "I would write [in an
>> appropriate
>> context='let me write']" rather than lexically with a list of potential
>> idioms.
>>
>> The whole process is quite heuristic  Many a Hebrew teacher will enjoy the
>> process when teaching classes communicatively. As a benefit, they will end
>> up controlling Hebrew much better than merely extrapolating from
>> 'grammar-translation'.
>>
>> In closing, the request “May I leave the room?” is not found in Tanakh, so
> any such request would have to be reconstructed.
>

Well, the language patterns are certainly all there, so it really isn't so
hard as it may sound to say what Isaiah or Jeremiah's options were. As
mentioned, אצאה, אצאה נא, אצא נא are all part of the fabric of the language
and acceptable. None of them involve guess work and are a nice place for a
student to begin. After a while, a person will even start to feel the slight
differences between the three constructs in this paragraph. אצאה is 'plain'.
אצאה נא is fully polite and proper, אצא נא is clipped and polite.

braxot
-- 
Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicallanguagecenter.com
Biblical Language Center
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