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  • From: Philip <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Why Deuteronomy is called "debarim" in the Hebrew Old Testament?
  • Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 07:11:23 -0700 (PDT)

Thank you, Barry & Pere.

I think you have helped me to say what I wanted to say,namely that the Hebrew
title, "Debarim" summarizes reasonably well, the entire book of Deuteronomy
as captured in the first verse, "the words which Moses spake unto all
Israel..." Deut 1.1, KJV  (The title, "Deuteronomy" summarizes the book in
another way).

Is this a reasonable statement to make?

Many thanks,

Philip Engmann,


--- On Sat, 3/26/11, Barry H. <nebarry AT verizon.net> wrote:

From: Barry H. <nebarry AT verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Why Deuteronomy is called "debarim" in the Hebrew Old
Testament?
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:39 PM


----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip" <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 8:03 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] Why Deuteronomy is called "debarim" in the Hebrew
OldTestament?


> Dear Listees,
>
> The OT Book of Deuteronomy is called "debarim" in the Hebrew Old
> Testament.
>
> Please does anyone know specifically why?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Philip Engmann,

For the Torah, the titles were the first significant word of the book, in
the case of Deuteronomy, Devarim.  Our titles are derived from the LXX, the
Greek translation of the OT.  The translators tried to be a bit more
descriptive than their Hebrew counterparts...  :)

Wow, a real question for a change...

N.E. Barry Hofstetter, semper melius Latine sonat...
Classics and Bible Instructor, TAA
http://www.theamericanacademy.net
(2010 Salvatori Excellence in Education Winner)
V-P of Academic Affairs, TNARS
bhofstetter AT tnars.net
http://www.tnars.net

http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry

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Subject: [b-hebrew] Infinitive Absolute in Other Languages?
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Dear Listees,

please does any one know whether the infinitive absolute form which exists in
biblical hebrew, exists is other languages as well, such as African Ghanaian
languages such as Twi, Fanti, Ga, Ewe, etc.

Many thanks,

Philip Engmann




>From bjwvmw AT com-pair.net Sat Mar 26 11:39:48 2011
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From: "Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] gen. 25 (tam?)
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Dear Jim,

Your reply came back garbled. See below.

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message -----
From: jimstinehart AT aol.com
To: bjwvmw AT com-pair.net ; George.Athas AT moore.edu.au ;
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] gen. 25 (tam?)


<font color='black' size='2' face='arial'>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>Rev.
Bryant J. Williams III:</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><?xml:namespace
prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>One of
the main differences between the view of you and Karl, and my view, is that
you (and I think Karl) see the Patriarchal narratives as having been composed
in the Middle Bronze Age and relating to the Early Bronze Age, whereas I see
the Patriarchal narratives as having been composed and relating to the Late
Bronze Age.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>That is an honest
disagreement.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>As I presume you
are aware, most university scholars today insist that the Patriarchal
narratives were composed by multiple authors in the 1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium
BCE, none of whom knew very much about the Bronze Age.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Let’s compare these three basic
theories regarding two specific items that you raise.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>1.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>You wrote:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun:
yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>“Now, I can see Abram dwelling near a large amount of
oaks because Northern California from about 50 miles South of Redding, CA on
I-5 going North has</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>plenty.
Its weather is very much like Israel's with its Mediterranean climate.
I</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>can
actually picture Abram sitting under a very large Oak (cf. 14:13,
24;18:1).”</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>The
city of Hebron does not have a Mediterranean climate.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It is nowhere near the Mediterranean
Sea, but rather abuts the utterly bleak Judean Desert.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>In the
Late Bronze Age [my theory], there were no oak trees at the city of
Hebron.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The Late Bronze Age was
abnormally dry, and oak trees do not usually grow as far south as the city of
Hebron, because it’s too hot and there’s not enough rain.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>On the other hand, there was a lot
more rain in the Early and Middle Bronze Ages, and so in that time period
[your theory], one might imagine oak trees at the city of Hebron.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>On the scholarly view, multiple
1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium BCE authors are making up a pre-history of the
Hebrews.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>To them, the “days of
old” would presumably have meant “dry years”, since the climate in the
first half of the 1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium BCE was much wetter and better
than in the Late Bronze Age.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>So
to me it seems unlikely that 1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium BCE authors would
imagine rare oak trees being at the city of Hebron in the Patriarchal
Age.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>What
works on all theories is if, per Genesis 13: 9, 11, Abraham goes west after
Lot has gone east from Bethel.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;
</SPAN>Then Abraham sojourns in the northern Shephelah, the Aijalon Valley,
which in Biblical times was ringed by magnificent oak trees, being perfectly
in accordance with what the Biblical text says.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>2.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>You wrote:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun:
yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>“Genesis 23:17-20 has Abraham purchasing from Ephron the
Hittite a piece of land called the Cave of Machpelah, east of Mamre near
Hebron (formerly Kiriath-Arba, vs. 2; cf. also Josh 14:15; 15:13 and Judg
1:10) which had trees.”</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT
size=3>(a)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>There were no
Hittites from eastern Anatolia in Canaan.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun:
yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Rather, XTYmeans XuT-iYa, the most common Hurrian name at
Nuzi.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The Biblical
“Hittites” are the historical Hurrians, who dominated Canaan as
princeling rulers in the mid-14<SUP>th</SUP> century BCE.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>This is indicating the Late Bronze
Age, as no other time period fits the Hurrians being in Canaan as important
lords.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT
size=3>(b)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The word
“formerly” does not appear in the Biblical text.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Rather, HW) means “that is”, and
does not mean “formerly”.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;
</SPAN>Kiriath is a standard west Semitic word for “city”.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>“Arba” means “four” in west
Semitic, while meaning “(Hurrian) lord” in Hurrian.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>There is no “City of Four” in
non-biblical records, and the number four makes no sense as a Biblical
nickname here.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Rather, this is
the “City of the Hurrian Lord(s)”.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;
</SPAN>It’s a perfect Biblical nickname, because “Ephron” in Hurrian
also means “(Hurrian) lord”.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;
</SPAN>The text is telling us that Abraham bought Sarah’s gravesite from a
Hurrian lord at a Hurrian-dominated city in the Late Bronze Age.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The Hurrian nomenclature here
strongly supports my Late Bronze Age dating, and cannot be squared with
either your Middle Bronze Age composition date, or the scholarly view that
multiple authors made this stuff up in the 1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium
BCE.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT
size=3>(c)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Genesis 37: 14 tells
us that the Patriarchs’ “Hebron”, that is, X-BR-W-N, is a
“valley”.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>That’s the
Aijalon Valley in the northern Shephelah, with valleys having no formal names
in the Bronze Age.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Whereas
Abraham sojourns in a verdant, low-lying rural valley [that makes perfect
sense, doesn’t it?], Abraham has to deal with city folk to purchase
Sarah’s gravesite.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>In the Late
Bronze Age, that meant going to a city dominated by Hurrian lords to buy a
plot of land from a Hurrian lord.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;
</SPAN>Kiriath Arba is on one level a nickname for RB-T, Rubutu, a
Hurrian-dominated city on the southern edge of the Aijalon Valley.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It is not the former name of the
mountainous city of Hebron.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>In
the Bronze Age, the name of the city of Hebron was “Qiltu”.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>3.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The rest of your post does not deal
with words that appear in the Hebrew text of the Patriarchal narratives, so I
have no comment.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>Jim
Stinehart</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT
size=3>Evanston, Illinois</FONT></div>


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