Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Philip <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>]

Thank you, Barry & Pere.

I think you have helped me to say what I wanted to say,namely that the Hebrew 
title, "Debarim" summarizes reasonably well, the entire book of Deuteronomy 
as captured in the first verse, "the words which Moses spake unto all 
Israel..." Deut 1.1, KJV  (The title, "Deuteronomy" summarizes the book in 
another way).

Is this a reasonable statement to make?

Many thanks,

Philip Engmann,


--- On Sat, 3/26/11, Barry H. <nebarry AT verizon.net> wrote:

From: Barry H. <nebarry AT verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Why Deuteronomy is called "debarim" in the Hebrew Old 
Testament?
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:39 PM


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Philip" <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 8:03 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] Why Deuteronomy is called "debarim" in the Hebrew
OldTestament?


> Dear Listees,
>
> The OT Book of Deuteronomy is called "debarim" in the Hebrew Old
> Testament.
>
> Please does anyone know specifically why?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Philip Engmann,

For the Torah, the titles were the first significant word of the book, in
the case of Deuteronomy, Devarim.  Our titles are derived from the LXX, the
Greek translation of the OT.  The translators tried to be a bit more
descriptive than their Hebrew counterparts...  :)

Wow, a real question for a change...

N.E. Barry Hofstetter, semper melius Latine sonat...
Classics and Bible Instructor, TAA
http://www.theamericanacademy.net
(2010 Salvatori Excellence in Education Winner)
V-P of Academic Affairs, TNARS
bhofstetter AT tnars.net
http://www.tnars.net

http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry

_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew




>From philipengmann AT yahoo.com  Sat Mar 26 11:33:05 2011
Return-Path: <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id DAE644C028; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 11:33:05 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
        DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,
        T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com
        [209.191.125.47])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C58C4C020
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 11:33:05 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: (qmail 38353 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Mar 2011 15:33:04 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024;
        t01153584; bh=pUWxdNKTgyG15sa7Grd9maJooChraD3t6P7WOau2wJw=;
        
h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;
        
b=XUE/eXHtY2xAEW92ldvUBIb+nzU2LV1TA1q/oc6iP/CiLPVUpw5KRqomSkAi19CULcEqo62wAX0vQSmPp0aL3pSqzgV9iPq8UXMHyy01uKT+LoC1ruXt08I/YFpDal4kZ0gVc8ShTQsoPTIj0ClbUBVDDK1gcz8XWH7CT4TFatADomainKey-Signature:
 a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
        
h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;
        
b=VUcdajQsk51wDXcYCe2s3RdH7TRGMbm3b77r1hXUVPToyYQ9/vKKEY2plAlkxH/RI2M5MRaMFW0KnGiMhwUciguJ6YZkvneW+36+UvqUyz3/XVJkGEmgGXow4k4P79ExvgTsK3TaCF8PQYLy73AkZDpvJD9YIXeNM2utgKNc1yM=;
Message-ID: <509555.19881.qm AT web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
X-YMail-OSG: EVwYzEMVM1kfzdzgumZfiEqkzxXCSYdfEmglGGudHba.fO0
        RnSTvCL3zKrm7_X2I_1jC66gAj_OEMyuYfY5e7yAphNCeJKKMzmmQgF._RJm
        NSkwVIOtJQi1fpfeBKKwvwjQxvS9Ps1MJETBTLrK68i2fpFOyI9z5..q1omj
        BWY_XWf6ZaxEwqtqC0UwgUcNzghXSY5sYRqjUEanlES9aOBLBzJqxvxw5H.i
        4N6hPolITIEkPdy8avzNg1kn9ciWfn_TZreK8sszvpOW7UWT1z2FLxYhsrTD
        RfCa9BJp5xxxQboeiGFr76YnzETUSx8mH0VcDTWrFgRneDA0vnZGrUqodAsM
        lYe7zV8mgyHwgIyN12Dovg3rksleSfWQAvCWj7iCxRq_.4icguRb_1tdJIwZ
        CXTEHGFxED4nwPS7n0WCHorjTegDjSRzIbQ--
Received: from [80.87.70.4] by web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP;
        Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:33:04 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/12.0.2 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.295617
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:33:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Philip <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
In-Reply-To: <17f3e.19e255d0.3abdf55d AT aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13
Subject: [b-hebrew] Infinitive Absolute in Other Languages?
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:33:06 -0000

Dear Listees,

please does any one know whether the infinitive absolute form which exists in 
biblical hebrew, exists is other languages as well, such as African Ghanaian 
languages such as Twi, Fanti, Ga, Ewe, etc.

Many thanks,

Philip Engmann




>From bjwvmw AT com-pair.net  Sat Mar 26 11:39:48 2011
Return-Path: <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id F2A6D4C043; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 11:39:47 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE
        autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from mail.com-pair.net (mail.com-pair.net [208.74.104.248])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729B04C028
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 11:39:44 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from oemcomputer (66-81-213-186.nocal.dialup.o1.com [66.81.213.186])
        by mail.com-pair.net
        (Rockliffe SMTPRA 8.0.4) with ESMTP id 
<B0023836878 AT mail.com-pair.net>;
        Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:39:42 -0700
Message-ID: <008301cbebd4$89ed1040$bad55142@oemcomputer>
From: "Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>
To: <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>, <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>,
        <jimstinehart AT aol.com>
References: <32897.41ce88e9.3abe6a7a AT aol.com>
        <004f01cbeb74$6281d280$23d75142@oemcomputer>
        <8CDB9C1CB7E3E75-1024-1D54E AT webmail-d031.sysops.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:40:35 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] gen. 25 (tam?)
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:39:48 -0000

Dear Jim,

Your reply came back garbled. See below.

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jimstinehart AT aol.com 
  To: bjwvmw AT com-pair.net ; George.Athas AT moore.edu.au ; 
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org 
  Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 3:40 AM
  Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] gen. 25 (tam?)


<font color='black' size='2' face='arial'>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>Rev. 
Bryant J. Williams III:</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><?xml:namespace 
prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>One of 
the main differences between the view of you and Karl, and my view, is that 
you (and I think Karl) see the Patriarchal narratives as having been composed 
in the Middle Bronze Age and relating to the Early Bronze Age, whereas I see 
the Patriarchal narratives as having been composed and relating to the Late 
Bronze Age.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>That is an honest 
disagreement.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>As I presume you 
are aware, most university scholars today insist that the Patriarchal 
narratives were composed by multiple authors in the 1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium 
BCE, none of whom knew very much about the Bronze Age.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Let’s compare these three basic 
theories regarding two specific items that you raise.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>1.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>You wrote:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: 
yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>“Now, I can see Abram dwelling near a large amount of 
oaks because Northern California from about 50 miles South of Redding, CA on 
I-5 going North has</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>plenty. 
Its weather is very much like Israel's with its Mediterranean climate. 
I</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>can 
actually picture Abram sitting under a very large Oak (cf. 14:13, 
24;18:1).”</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>The 
city of Hebron does not have a Mediterranean climate.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It is nowhere near the Mediterranean 
Sea, but rather abuts the utterly bleak Judean Desert.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>In the 
Late Bronze Age [my theory], there were no oak trees at the city of 
Hebron.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The Late Bronze Age was 
abnormally dry, and oak trees do not usually grow as far south as the city of 
Hebron, because it’s too hot and there’s not enough rain.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>On the other hand, there was a lot 
more rain in the Early and Middle Bronze Ages, and so in that time period 
[your theory], one might imagine oak trees at the city of Hebron.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>On the scholarly view, multiple 
1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium BCE authors are making up a pre-history of the 
Hebrews.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>To them, the “days of 
old” would presumably have meant “dry years”, since the climate in the 
first half of the 1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium BCE was much wetter and better 
than in the Late Bronze Age.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>So 
to me it seems unlikely that 1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium BCE authors would 
imagine rare oak trees being at the city of Hebron in the Patriarchal 
Age.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>What 
works on all theories is if, per Genesis 13: 9, 11, Abraham goes west after 
Lot has gone east from Bethel.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; 
</SPAN>Then Abraham sojourns in the northern Shephelah, the Aijalon Valley, 
which in Biblical times was ringed by magnificent oak trees, being perfectly 
in accordance with what the Biblical text says.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>2.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>You wrote:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: 
yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>“Genesis 23:17-20 has Abraham purchasing from Ephron the 
Hittite a piece of land called the Cave of Machpelah, east of Mamre near 
Hebron (formerly Kiriath-Arba, vs. 2; cf. also Josh 14:15; 15:13 and Judg 
1:10) which had trees.”</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT 
size=3>(a)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>There were no 
Hittites from eastern Anatolia in Canaan.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: 
yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Rather, XTYmeans XuT-iYa, the most common Hurrian name at 
Nuzi.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The Biblical 
“Hittites” are the historical Hurrians, who dominated Canaan as 
princeling rulers in the mid-14<SUP>th</SUP> century BCE.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>This is indicating the Late Bronze 
Age, as no other time period fits the Hurrians being in Canaan as important 
lords.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT 
size=3>(b)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The word 
“formerly” does not appear in the Biblical text.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Rather, HW) means “that is”, and 
does not mean “formerly”.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; 
</SPAN>Kiriath is a standard west Semitic word for “city”.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>“Arba” means “four” in west 
Semitic, while meaning “(Hurrian) lord” in Hurrian.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>There is no “City of Four” in 
non-biblical records, and the number four makes no sense as a Biblical 
nickname here.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Rather, this is 
the “City of the Hurrian Lord(s)”.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; 
</SPAN>It’s a perfect Biblical nickname, because “Ephron” in Hurrian 
also means “(Hurrian) lord”.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; 
</SPAN>The text is telling us that Abraham bought Sarah’s gravesite from a 
Hurrian lord at a Hurrian-dominated city in the Late Bronze Age.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The Hurrian nomenclature here 
strongly supports my Late Bronze Age dating, and cannot be squared with 
either your Middle Bronze Age composition date, or the scholarly view that 
multiple authors made this stuff up in the 1<SUP>st</SUP> millennium 
BCE.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT 
size=3>(c)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Genesis 37: 14 tells 
us that the Patriarchs’ “Hebron”, that is, X-BR-W-N, is a 
“valley”.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>That’s the 
Aijalon Valley in the northern Shephelah, with valleys having no formal names 
in the Bronze Age.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Whereas 
Abraham sojourns in a verdant, low-lying rural valley [that makes perfect 
sense, doesn’t it?], Abraham has to deal with city folk to purchase 
Sarah’s gravesite.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>In the Late 
Bronze Age, that meant going to a city dominated by Hurrian lords to buy a 
plot of land from a Hurrian lord.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; 
</SPAN>Kiriath Arba is on one level a nickname for RB-T, Rubutu, a 
Hurrian-dominated city on the southern edge of the Aijalon Valley.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It is not the former name of the 
mountainous city of Hebron.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>In 
the Bronze Age, the name of the city of Hebron was “Qiltu”.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>3.<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The rest of your post does not deal 
with words that appear in the Hebrew text of the Patriarchal narratives, so I 
have no comment.</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><o:p><FONT 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT size=3>Jim 
Stinehart</FONT></div>


<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=HTMLPreformstted><FONT 
size=3>Evanston, Illinois</FONT></div>


<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">

<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, 
Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12px" 
id=AOLMsgPart_0_4a71f2b7-2980-4896-890c-d6c7c100c62f><PRE style="FONT-SIZE: 
9pt">&nbsp;</PRE></div>
<!-- end of AOLMsgPart_0_4a71f2b7-2980-4896-890c-d6c7c100c62f --></div>
</font>
<P><HR></P>Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.<BR>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/696 - Release Date: 02/21/2007 
3:19 PM<BR>