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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Pronounciation

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Chronological Thread  
  • From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
  • To: Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr>
  • Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Pronounciation
  • Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:18:33 -0800

Arnaud:

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Arnaud Fournet
<fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr>wrote:

>
> From: K Randolph
>
> What’s at stake here is that in this thread and in others, you are asking
> when certain words entered the Biblical Hebrew language. You mentioned in
> particular HYKL
> ***
> Actually the word is heykhal.
> A.
> ***
>
> as being from Sumarian. If Sumarian was still spoken as a native tongue as
> late as the nineth century BC, then there is no problem of borrowing when
> Israel was building palaces.
> ***
> It's probably not a direct loanword from Sumerian into Hebrew.
> Some intermediary semitic probably transmitted the word.
> There's a huge cultural wave radiating from central Mesopotamia in the 19th
> and 18th centuries BCE and the word possibly entered Hebrew at that time.
> A.
> ***
>
> Because history is all messed up,
> ***
> There are clearly three things I disagree with :
> 1. your replacement of words like heykhal by skeletons like HYKL
> This amounts to destroying information.
>

I used the accepted transliteration scheme that has been used on this list
for years. It is listed elsewhere on this site.

Seeing as the consonantal text is original, I have not destroyed any
information.

Seeing as the pronunciation points are de facto medieval commentary, I
simply choose not to add them to the original.


> 2. your claim that everything is "uncertain"
> This is not acceptable
>

Where have I claimed that “everything is "uncertain"”? Can you point to any
one such statement?

However, intellectual honesty compels me to acknowledge that *some* things
are uncertain and to give reasons for that uncertainty. One of those things
is ancient history.


> 3. your claim that history is a mess
> I disagree
>

History is off topic for this list, except that you included it in your
messages.

Whether you agree or not is irrelevant.


> A.
> ***
>
> we can’t say when Sumerian ceased being a natively spoken language.
> ***
> I disagree.
> Probably sometimes around -1800 BCE at the very last.
> A.
> ***


And what is your evidence?

>
> The same with Ugaritic—I have seen dates as late as roughly 800–600 BC for
> when the library was composed and it is possible that Ugarit was destroyed
> by the Babylonians around the same time as Judea was exiled.
>
>
> In this thread, “uncertain” is a synonym for “we don’t know”.
> ***
>
> I disagree.
>

No problem.


> This "we" does not include myself.
>

Understood.


> This is your decree.
>

My decree??? I merely acknowledge what is known.


> You don't want to know or acknowledge what is known or knowable.
>

Oh? When I point out where the findings of archaeology contradict the
commonly believed modern narrative of history, how is that not wanting
“to know or acknowledge what is known or knowable”?


> I disagree with that stance.
>
> Arnaud Fournet
>
> In closing, this thread is titled “Pronunciation”, however it is wandering
far from that subject. Is there any reason to keep it going? I say, either
get back to discussions on pronunciation, or let’s end it.

Karl W. Randolph.




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