Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Read <J.Read-2 AT sms.ed.ac.uk>]

Hi all,

there is, in fact, more evidence to bring to light which hasn't been  
mentioned, so far, in this discussion.

1) Ben Sirach quotes frequently from showing its firm position by  
early 2nd century BCE. This shows any later dating difficult to  
contrive.

2) The Babylonian talmud names the author as Solomon but states that  
it was only written down much later (bava vatra 14b).

And so, even if proponents of components of proto-Mishnaic Hebrew  
existing in Qohelet did ever prove to be true we have already had the  
reason why written down for us by the tradition conveyed in the  
Babylonian Talmud for many centuries.

James Christian


Quoting James Read <J.Read-2 AT sms.ed.ac.uk>:

> Hi Bryant,
>
> as far as I can tell the proponents of a late authorship of Qohelet
> base their conclusions on the use of 2 words in Qohelet which they
> view to be Mishnaic Hebrew (or rather proto-Mishnaic Hebrew if we're
> going to be precise about this). They see the absence of these words
> in works dated earlier as enough evidence that these words were not in
> use in the days of Solomon or even pre-exile.
>
> There are a number of problems with this kind of reasoning. First and
> foremost that the corpus we have is so small it is impossible to make
> conclusions of that kind with any degree of certainty.
>
> James Christian
>
> Quoting "Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>:
>
> > Dear George, Uri, et al,
> >
> > Several times statements have been made that Qohelet is a late book
> > that can be
> > deduced from its content alone (last post by Uri); that it is a late book
> > (George); yet, no evidence has been produced to show that this is
> > so; or "such
> > as is obvious in the style of Qohelet (Uri). It is NOT so obvious.
> > Please show
> > the evidence.
> >
> > If we are discussing on this list the differences between BH and MH and are
> > using Qohelet as the example, then please let us see the evidence of
> >  both sides
> > of the debate. He said, You said, does NOT cut it. Please show the
> > chapter and
> > verse, i.e. the evidence. Please give the examples of MH being found in BH.
> >
> > Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Uri Hurwitz" <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
> > To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 1:32 PM
> > Subject: [b-hebrew] Qohelet
> >
> >
> > Dear Rolf,
> >  The opposition to the the evidence about diachronic development of
> > BH,at least
> > in this debate, did not seem take into account the evidence of Hebrew
> > inscription which have been dated to pre-exilic times. Whether in   
> > the Lachish
> > letters, the Arad material , the Yabneh letter, or many others smaller
> > fragments, there is in them no scintilla of evidence of Mishnaic language.
> >
> >  One may bring as a further point, the evidence of dialogue, or   
> > direct speech
> > which authors of many texts within the HB books used in their
> > narrative, such as
> > "Am I my brther's keeper?" This was done for various reasons, but
> > the overriding
> > one was to introduce the drama of live conversation. This was done
> > in the living
> > style familiar to the authors and their hearers or readers. Again,
> > there is not
> > the slightest trace of what would become Mishnaic language, such as
> > is obvious
> > in the style of Qohelet.
> >
> >  That the latter is a late book, can be deduced from its content alone.
> >
> >  Uri Hurwitz
> >
> > ( Please do not mix me up with Avi Hurvitz, not a relative )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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